Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[bwe]

cd288 mad that people are trying to take away his toys

[cd288]

Originally Posted by bwe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

cd288 mad that people are trying to take away his toys

Lol I main a Rogue on Green dude. I have lowbie Mage and Wizard alts along with a low Enchanter who isn't even double digits yet because I'm not sure I enjoy the class.

Tecmos also isn't playing an Enchanter right now on Green per his statements. You don't have to have an agenda (i.e. be playing that class) to realize when something is just simply stupid.

[vossiewulf]

Yeah so if Enchanters are a super-effective solo class, something is wrong. In the first months of live chanters were a rare sight because they were the most useless of all casters, pet was useless, nukes were nearly useless. Once chanters had Clarity and people were higher levels requiring good CC chanters started to become more popular as group members.

But early on, the characters least likely to be seen were rogues, bards, and chanters.

Of course I wouldn't expect anyone to change anything based on anecdotes but I do think that if chanters on Green/Teal are running rampant in the way I'm seeing described, then some more research is suggested to figure out where the delta is.

Is there no data anywhere on the popularity of character types at various points? If found that would always provide a solid reality check on how close to classic you are.

[Rooj]

If it's not different, then why do you suppose they've made all these unclassic changes but never done anything about the ENORMOUS class imbalances present in classic EQ?

Maybe the same reason Verant didn't? Because most players weren't playing a certain way back then, so they didn't need to?

Don't you think that many of the normal things that go on on P99 would've been changed by Verant if they'd been normal during era? I LOVE reading through old MMO patch notes and dialogue from developers, and time after time again Verant talked about balance. Whether or not they were good at it is another discussion, but it's pretty clear that they WANTED and STROVE to achieve class balance. And in my opinion, for the most part they did a decent job. In every single patch they ever did there was SOME sort of balance change whether it was a spell, an item, a mob, or a mechanic.

But I can't think of any class imbalance that compares to Charm. Other than that, I don't think that the classes are "ENORMOUSLY" imbalanced. I think that with or without Charm, Enchanter is the strongest and most effective class in the game, but I also think that all of the things it can do including charm are a part of its identity. Enchanters should 100% be charming. But they shouldn't be doing the amount of damage they are doing, on top of all the utility that they provide.

Is there imbalance? Well, duh. This ain't a homogenized modern MMO. I truly believe that having unique classes directly produces imbalance, yet I'd still much rather have unique classes than homogenized ones. I don't really care about imbalance that much, except for in extreme cases like this.

So why did Charm make it so long like this on live? If I had to guess, it's because parsing wasn't really a thing yet even for developers. Might also have to do with the fact that making an MMO is hard as fuck because you are literally creating another world, practically with its own laws of nature. Either way, it only took 4 years for them to finally start nerfing charm, and look at all the things they did to it:
-Charmer gets 50% of the agro of the pet. (I don't see this in official patch notes, only on forums about the test server. it may not have gone through, but players were saying that if they were also the slower, they'd have to delay sending in their pet or they'd get agro)
-Healing a charmed pet now generates an appropriate amount of hate for
the healer.
-Charmed pets now take up to one third of the experience for each NPC
killed. This amount scales down based on the percentage of damage to
the target that the pet does. Dire charm pets still take the same
experience they always have.
-Charmed pets are no longer selected as a monster's preferred target
if there are many players available for the monster to attack instead.
-The resist modifiers on several charm spells (such as Beckon, Call of the Arch Mage, Command of Druzil and Word of Terris) have been removed, making them a bit easier
to resist.
-Changed Charm spells so that NPCs spell use will now be interrupted once the charm has expired. (I believe the point of this was that people were waiting for pets to start casting a spell before attempting to recharming them, removing any chance of being hit before recharming)
-Curious what this means: -The Hole now uses Kunark-level Mez/Charm/Taunt rules
-Most importantly (I can't find this in any patch notes but the QQ is definitely visible on the internets), charmed pet damage was reduced by around 50%.

"They also nerfed charmed pet damage. If you fully buffed a charmed pet, he still did much less damage than he would have uncharmed and unbuffed. Of course, the second he broke charm, he did his full damage to you. I fully admit, enchanters were too damned powerful before. An enchanter who was good at crowd control could turn certain wipes into easy exp as the mobs lined up waiting to be killed. When PoP was first released, a good charming enchanter could solo mobs that normally took a raid to kill. The only way to get through some Gates of Discord content was to build a party around a charming enchanter (the expansion was balanced for level 70, but the level cap stayed at 65, so a warrior couldn't tank the incoming damage. An enchanter would charm a pet, the pet would tank, and the rest of the party was there mainly to keep the enchanter alive on charm breaks)."

Those are the changes to charm within the first 5 years of Everquest, but after Luclin launch of course. Look at how DRASTIC they are. Wonder why...

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those are the changes to charm within the first 5 years of Everquest, but after Luclin launch of course. Look at how DRASTIC they are. Wonder why...

They implemented dire charm.

It was an endless duration charm that worked on mobs up to lvl 46, at 59.

They obviously didn't see charm as an issue, or that would never have made it ingame.

Can you imagine how strong a 59 char with a 46 pet is in sebilis, given that the pet will never break? Right.

ps. it also has a -1000 mr resist check.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They implemented dire charm.

It was an endless duration charm that worked on mobs up to lvl 46, at 59.

They obviously didn't see charm as an issue, or that would never have made it ingame.

Can you imagine how strong a 59 char with a 46 pet is in sebilis, given that the pet will never break? Right.

ps. it also has a -1000 mr resist check.

Dire Charm also:
-Has a 72 minute recast timer! Something goes wrong, your game crashes, you get kicked offline, your pet dies, you get trained... RIP.
-Wasn't infinite duration at release, but did last a few hours then I believe
-Was dispellable. Ouch, a 72 minute recast being dispellable, lol.
-Wasn't anywhere near as good as regular Charm.
-Doesn't seem like people even used it anymore after Luclin, because of the above. Regular Charm was just way too much better.

But you're right, they didn't see that Charm was an issue, which is exactly what the problem was. Seems like when parsing started to get big in the MMO community all of a sudden charmed pet DPS gets cut in half and they start taking up to 33% of the EXP LOL

[eunomios]

Originally Posted by derpcake2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They implemented dire charm.

They obviously didn't see charm as an issue, or that would never have made it ingame.

No, this is your bias concluding such.

AAs were a major selling point to keep people subscribed into another expansion, even though most people hadn't even gotten their kunark progression finished (let alone velious).

Dire Charm was sold by the devs to enchanters as FINALLY a working long duration charm (with a limitation).

If you take a look at the AAs as a whole in Luclin and PoP expansions, you will see that the intent was to fix loose ends and poor viability throughout all the classes.

During live (shortly before kunark -> Luclin) I mainly played enchanter. I gave charming a shot at many points [I was always advised in group/raid to not use it] solo. MR values in live EQ were the absolute devil. Tash resisted, DDs resisted almost 90%, Color stuns resisted, Mesmerize resisted, root broke/resisted, and charm was no exception. << not even talking Charm Duration - but rather what happens after a break - when mes resisted, recharm resisted, color stun resisted, root failed often a charm break left an enchanter with low mana and a pissed off healer.

Yes things resist on p99 - but the resist rates even with tash/malo on live were absolutely brutal in comparison. Part for why I think Wizards get so shafted on p99 is because their Evo nukes were designed to resist much less (8-10% or so) than other classes [not just lures].

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by eunomios [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, this is your bias concluding such.

AAs were a major selling point to keep people subscribed into another expansion, even though most people hadn't even gotten their kunark progression finished (let alone velious).

Dire Charm was sold by the devs to enchanters as FINALLY a working long duration charm (with a limitation).

If you take a look at the AAs as a whole in Luclin and PoP expansions, you will see that the intent was to fix loose ends and poor viability throughout all the classes.

During live (shortly before kunark -> Luclin) I mainly played enchanter. I gave charming a shot at many points [I was always advised in group/raid to not use it] solo. MR values in live EQ were the absolute devil. Tash resisted, DDs resisted almost 90%, Color stuns resisted, Mesmerize resisted, root broke/resisted, and charm was no exception. << not even talking Charm Duration - but rather what happens after a break - when mes resisted, recharm resisted, color stun resisted, root failed often a charm break left an enchanter with low mana and a pissed off healer.

Yes things resist on p99 - but the resist rates even with tash/malo on live were absolutely brutal in comparison. Part for why I think Wizards get so shafted on p99 is because their Evo nukes were designed to resist much less (8-10% or so) than other classes [not just lures].

Thanks for sharing your feels.

I understand people considered you terrible.

Is there more you want to share? We are here for you.

Those tash resists must have been hard. Do elaborate.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by eunomios [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, this is your bias concluding such.

AAs were a major selling point to keep people subscribed into another expansion, even though most people hadn't even gotten their kunark progression finished (let alone velious).

Dire Charm was sold by the devs to enchanters as FINALLY a working long duration charm (with a limitation).

If you take a look at the AAs as a whole in Luclin and PoP expansions, you will see that the intent was to fix loose ends and poor viability throughout all the classes.

During live (shortly before kunark -> Luclin) I mainly played enchanter. I gave charming a shot at many points [I was always advised in group/raid to not use it] solo. MR values in live EQ were the absolute devil. Tash resisted, DDs resisted almost 90%, Color stuns resisted, Mesmerize resisted, root broke/resisted, and charm was no exception. << not even talking Charm Duration - but rather what happens after a break - when mes resisted, recharm resisted, color stun resisted, root failed often a charm break left an enchanter with low mana and a pissed off healer.

Yes things resist on p99 - but the resist rates even with tash/malo on live were absolutely brutal in comparison. Part for why I think Wizards get so shafted on p99 is because their Evo nukes were designed to resist much less (8-10% or so) than other classes [not just lures].

Lmao DD resisted 90% of the time? Wtf are you talking about no it didnt

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lmao DD resisted 90% of the time? Wtf are you talking about no it didnt

Tash resisted too!