Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Tecmos Deception]

But just to make it clear, since I'm not sure exactly why Frug is quoting that, charisma may not have been affecting durations on live, but durations were still similar to how they are here (except perhaps charms against stuff much lower-level than the chanter).

I kinda assume most people still continuing this discussion didn't see the tests done by a classic-era chanter that we were posting yesterday morning.

[Frug]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But just to make it clear, since I'm not sure exactly why Frug is quoting that

Read what you said, very carefully.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Frug [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Read what you said, very carefully.

Gimme a [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] or [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] next time so the joke comes through text better. I've been mistyping charisma as charm nonstop in these threads and have managed to notice and fix most of them before my edit timer expires! Lol.

[bum3]

It's so bad right now that my wife who played ench in classic for years doesn't charm... she got told she was useless because enchanters are charm dps and not for cc/buffs... wtf has p99 done to EQ?

[Tecmos Deception]

P99 didn't do anything. 20 years of gaming and accumulating EQ knowledge and new internet connections happened though.

There are dozens of reasons why people didn't charm in groups then like they do now that are NOT "charm is mechanically too strong on p99 relative to classic." The little actual data posted in this thread generally backs up p99 charm durations. The people wanting charm nerfed want it nerfed not because they found any solid evidence that it was weaker in classic, but because they don't like enchanters being different than the developers intended, than they remember, than they like.

There's nothing more (meaningful) to discuss unless someone finds more data.


edit - Want some examples of why charm didn't happen in groups from my own personal experiences on live? I charm solod a ton back in the day. I sometimes used a green-con charm in groups for DPS. When I didn't charm in groups, it was for a variety of reasons like
1) "you're not supposed to be a DPS class, you're supposed to be a support/CC class,"
2) I liked focusing on CC,
3) I liked to use mana on nukes for pretty particle effects and the idea of blasting stuff which left me with less to deal with charm breaks in addition to the mandatory CC and buff/debuff roles,
4) I liked to use mana on cripple line of spells because it seemed like those debuffs should help a lot,
5) everyone was bad so trains were more common and CC assistance from rooters was less common so CC required more effort and time back then than now,
6) shitty internet connections caused problems with charms we didn't have back in the day - group mates didn't like babysitting a broken charm until I came back from LD to reclaim it,
7) shit was crowded a lot of the time and groups didn't like a potential exp kill to be tied up as a pet,
8) I never used berserker str line of spells to help protect myself from death on charm breaks because I disliked the short duration that often didn't help and I didn't know how to stack it properly with rune and I thought it was mostly just nice to carry more loot if I didn't have someone else around to str buff to stack with the earth elemental illusion I'd often use for +10 strength,
9) i never used runes above 3 because peridots were "expensive" to me back then,
10) i didn't know what a GCD clicky was,
11) I had spell gems full of stupid spells like cripple, boon, a nuke, multiple durations of mezzes, leaving too little room for the proper charming setup (which I didn't even know about back then anyway),
12) I didn't think to have malaise line cast on charms,
13) I didn't know about -mr gear for pets,
14) I made a chanter back then based on the concept of controlling battles, not doing massive charm dps,

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Any small number of those things was enough to be incompatible with charming a blue con in groups back then, even if charm were stronger on live than it is here. It is ENTIRELY reasonable that p99 charm is very accurate given this line of reasoning + actual data we have in this thread about charm durations.

If you think that it would be possible to play like 99% of us did back in the day while maintaining a high-blue-con charm pet in groups, demonstrate it on a video on p99. I guarantee if you're not getting malaise or -mr gear, not using berserker str and highest-tier runes, LDing once or more per hour randomly, and nuking once per fight, you'll find charm to be a lot different than when you play with ALL the perks we have because it is 2019 instead of 1999.

[bum3]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P99 didn't do anything. 20 years of gaming and accumulating EQ knowledge and new internet connections happened though.

There are dozens of reasons why people didn't charm in groups then like they do now that are NOT "charm is mechanically too strong on p99 relative to classic." The little actual data posted in this thread generally backs up p99 charm durations. The people wanting charm nerfed want it nerfed not because they found any solid evidence that it was weaker in classic, but because they don't like enchanters being different than the developers intended, than they remember, than they like.

There's nothing more (meaningful) to discuss unless someone finds more data.


edit - Want some examples of why charm didn't happen in groups from my own personal experiences on live? I charm solod a ton back in the day. I sometimes used a green-con charm in groups for DPS. When I didn't charm in groups, it was for a variety of reasons like
1) "you're not supposed to be a DPS class, you're supposed to be a support/CC class,"
2) I liked focusing on CC,
3) I liked to use mana on nukes for pretty particle effects and the idea of blasting stuff which left me with less to deal with charm breaks in addition to the mandatory CC and buff/debuff roles,
4) I liked to use mana on cripple line of spells because it seemed like those debuffs should help a lot,
5) everyone was bad so trains were more common and CC assistance from rooters was less common so CC required more effort and time back then than now,
6) shitty internet connections caused problems with charms we didn't have back in the day - group mates didn't like babysitting a broken charm until I came back from LD to reclaim it,
7) shit was crowded a lot of the time and groups didn't like a potential exp kill to be tied up as a pet,
8) I never used berserker str line of spells to help protect myself from death on charm breaks because I disliked the short duration that often didn't help and I didn't know how to stack it properly with rune and I thought it was mostly just nice to carry more loot if I didn't have someone else around to str buff to stack with the earth elemental illusion I'd often use for +10 strength,
9) i never used runes above 3 because peridots were "expensive" to me back then,
10) i didn't know what a GCD clicky was,
11) I had spell gems full of stupid spells like cripple, boon, a nuke, multiple durations of mezzes, leaving too little room for the proper charming setup (which I didn't even know about back then anyway),
12) I didn't think to have malaise line cast on charms,
13) I didn't know about -mr gear for pets,
14) I made a chanter back then based on the concept of controlling battles, not doing massive charm dps,

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Any small number of those things was enough to be incompatible with charming a blue con in groups back then, even if charm were stronger on live than it is here. It is ENTIRELY reasonable that p99 charm is very accurate given this line of reasoning + actual data we have in this thread about charm durations.

If you think that it would be possible to play like 99% of us did back in the day while maintaining a high-blue-con charm pet in groups, demonstrate it on a video on p99. I guarantee if you're not getting malaise or -mr gear, not using berserker str and highest-tier runes, LDing once or more per hour randomly, and nuking once per fight, you'll find charm to be a lot different than when you play with ALL the perks we have because it is 2019 instead of 1999.

I read a lot of excuses that make no sense. Sounds like you were a really uniformed player back then. Isn't the point to play like back then? Not to play like you're using cheat codes? My friends thought it was great to put in cheat codes and use bugs to get ahead. I always thought they were unskilled. What p99 did do was let players get stuck in time and give rule benders and non-intended loopholes to be used to trivialize content. Everyone on live moved on. Where as p99 players stayed to "perfect" these ideals to where they became the norm. What I find funny is back then.. people had legitimate excuses for trains... shitty netz, LDs... today people train just as much without as many legitimate reasons. Might be less trains if enchanters had CC up instead of a full line of spells solely for pet charming. Cause those caster groups in lguk last night that trained 4x in a hour is pretty common.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by bum3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Isn't the point to play like back then?

No.

If you were at a old-time baseball game that some folks like to do, would you go around telling them that they're not doing it right because some of them are on modern fitness routines and diets the rest of the week? Of course not. The point of an old-time baseball game is to have fun while swinging an old bat, playing by old rules, wearing old uniforms, and apologizing to the fans when you slide and kick up dust on them. It's not about literally going back in time in every way. Nobody sane wants to change the rules just because modern players are different than players in 1860 were.

How is it possible that I have to explain this?

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by bum3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read a lot of excuses that make no sense. Sounds like you were a really uniformed player back then. Isn't the point to play like back then? Not to play like you're using cheat codes? My friends thought it was great to put in cheat codes and use bugs to get ahead. I always thought they were unskilled. What p99 did do was let players get stuck in time and give rule benders and non-intended loopholes to be used to trivialize content. Everyone on live moved on. Where as p99 players stayed to "perfect" these ideals to where they became the norm. What I find funny is back then.. people had legitimate excuses for trains... shitty netz, LDs... today people train just as much without as many legitimate reasons. Might be less trains if enchanters had CC up instead of a full line of spells solely for pet charming. Cause those caster groups in lguk last night that trained 4x in a hour is pretty common.

holy sh*t get a grip man - laughing / cringing at that bold part

filed under bad / sad / mad

40 pages and counting...y'all need to go outside and get some fresh air.

[Mushman]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

holy sh*t get a grip man - laughing / cringing at that bold part

filed under bad / sad / mad

40 pages and counting...y'all need to go outside and get some fresh air.

Thanks for the great contribution to the conversation.

I think it's gone 40 pages because people are passionate about it. Not anger from trains and other nonsense. Although it's been fun watching the rookie enchanters learning how to stomp the game with enchanter, wiping out everyone between them and the ZL while they practice.

I think the core issue is that having enchanter as powerful as it just isn't classic. Not sure if it's code, connection, knowledge or what. Having this go on with charm in classic era EQ really shrinks the world and goes against the values that make classic EQ a beautiful game.

Change for more classic experience seems like common sense to many. I'd like to hear any feedback on how getting the incomparable power of charm in line could have any negative impact in the world or player base or make the game less classic.

[bum3]

Originally Posted by Mushman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the great contribution to the conversation.

I think it's gone 40 pages because people are passionate about it. Not anger from trains and other nonsense. Although it's been fun watching the rookie enchanters learning how to stomp the game with enchanter, wiping out everyone between them and the ZL while they practice.

I think the core issue is that having enchanter as powerful as it just isn't classic. Not sure if it's code, connection, knowledge or what. Having this go on with charm in classic era EQ really shrinks the world and goes against the values that make classic EQ a beautiful game.

Change for more classic experience seems like common sense to many. I'd like to hear any feedback on how getting the incomparable power of charm in line could have any negative impact in the world or player base or make the game less classic.

Boom. Nailed it.