Game Mechanics: Green NPCs should flee at 50%

[Dolalin]

This thread shouldn't be forgotten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Dolalin]

I've been looking into whether mobs would flee if their friends were still around, since social flee-prevention always did seem very OP on P99.

This post implies frogs in Guk would flee even if their friends were nearby:

7/26/99

Richard Cortese <rico...@netmagic.net> wrote:
> Have you tried hitting them with a DOT before they
> get out of range?
Well, they get out of range SO quickly... i mean - Kaboom! And they're
around the corner... and they are fast runners... soooo... I find it's
better to root and DD. It usually works. I mean - we probably killed a
hundred frogs, and had 2 get away.

However, i have that upgrade to Flame Lick now (Immolate, I think it's
called) ... so maybe I will try that next time. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is, though, that I can't watch ALL the frogs' health... and
when there is more than one tank beating on more than one frog, it's hard
to tell which one is going to flee first.

KJ.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Y/tkqTSV5YLgoJ

Same with this one:

1/24/00

Roadkill <roadkill@aroma.com.REMOVEME> wrote in message
news:8EC556A28roadkillaromacom@207.126.101.100...

> If he KNOWS he can't run (because of root), then why do you consider it
> smart of him to try and run?

I don't, I consider it smart for him to go on the defensive.

> And when it wears off he runs... But UNTIL then, why do you consider it
> SMART to just sit there and take the beating without fighting back?

In a real life situation, you are much more likely to survive someone
beating on
your back, rather than your chest and stomach. But since this game is
hardly
*real* I would settle for a greatly reduced Atk value, and an increase AC
value when the monster can't run in "flee" mode. I just don't think giving
a
panicking monster no penalty whatsoever is ludicrous.

> If he can't move at all, and he knows it (which he does in the current EQ
> setup), WHY would fighting back be considered the act of an idiot over
just
> standing there and taking the beating?

Best offense is a good defense... Why wouldn't he devote more effort into
parrying
the blows untill the root wears off and he can run? and in some situations,
where
my party was fighting more than one mob, if one went into "flee" mode and
was low enough
that he wasn;t moving, or not moving fast, we ignore him and beat another to
minimize
damage taken... in this situation, is is very much more intelligent to NOT
attack, and
hop the rot wears off while everyone is busy. And EQ's AI can NOT do
that...
I'm just saying there are better options available... take the warrior's
berserk ability,
and modify it to reflect a defensive posture, and apply. Seems easy enough.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/zn4_I69MgEIJ

Another that's even more explicit:

1/6/00

The runner problem usually comes from a little guy in a group spawn. They run
quickly, nobody is really concentrating on them, they get out without anyone
noticing and they come back with friends. IMHO that's the problem with
"runners".

A big mob that runs can be a problem, of course, but he's going to have the
group's attention (assuming that the group is targeting properly and you don't
have six group members fighting four mob).

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/BfXRHbiq8JQJ

Corroboration of the above:

1/6/00

On 06 Jan 2000 16:49:14 GMT, masonbarge@aol.comnospam (Mason Barge) wrote:
>
>The runner problem usually comes from a little guy in a group spawn. They run
>quickly, nobody is really concentrating on them, they get out without anyone
>noticing and they come back with friends. IMHO that's the problem with
>"runners".

<snip>

I have often seen these "little guys" beat on a damage shield for a bit
and work themselves to the running point when no one expects it. Gotta
snare the little guys right away if there is potential for this to happen.

Kethos

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/jIzMQtjV1nsJ

This guy was fighting two gnolls and one ran before the other:

4/3/99

You know how a lot of runners will dash off a little bit, maybe out of
range, maybe to the next room? Then they come barrelling back?
Well, this one time we managed to end up fighting two different
gnolls, one of which conned even to me ... and I couldn't kill him,
and Cristos was busy ensnaring the other one ... so he got away. And
stayed away. For a looooooong time. Like, a couple of minutes.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....U/-2ECpwAvk2YJ

This one is very explicit: "SNARE EVERY MOB"

8/18/99

>On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:04:17 GMT, lok...@enteract.com (Lokari) wrote:

[snip]

>How about:
>Level 30 Paladin
>Level 26 Druid
>Level 26 Cleric
>Level 31 Shaman
>Against 1 cyclops (roughly level 32) in Rathe Mountains?
>
>In this situation, Cleric should heal, and the Paladin should tank. But what
>does the Druid do? Cyclops don't run and collect their friends, so you don't
>need a druid as a "get away nuker".

Just prior to engagement the druid should damage shield the paladin.
The druid should pull with a snare. Druids should always be snaring.

There and additional benefit to this since snare really annoys
mobs...so with a snare or two and maybe a DD the druid can make the
homer chase him around while the paladin hits it from behind.

Maybe a DoT if you don't care much about the DoT bug for this mob.

>How about the same party, again, but this time in Mistmoore, or Permafrost,
>battling 3 level 29 opponents? At this point, all except the paladin need to
>be on guard for "escapees". In this case the Druid needs to secondary nuke
>escapees, and assist with heals, and can keep the non-primary targets rooted
>away from the melee. Cleric also can help keep opponents rooted/stunned, so
>they don't call their friends AND do "get away" nukes, because if a dozen NPC
>friends get called healing and medding for mana ain't gonna mean squat.
>Shaman needs to nuke stuff off the cleric if they latch onto the cleric for
>healing, keep the paladin "quicked" and backup heal.

No. Druid should be damage shielding the paladin. Then snaring every
single mob. It may take a while since the mobs are red.

NO ROOTS.

Everyone else should hopefully use /assist to try to beat one mob to a
pulp as quickly as possible.

With snare and /assist you should get no runners. Besides, you don't
have a big enough nuke to consistently drop a runner in this party.

In any case, a lot of areas are twisty enough (or on a grade) that
you'll lose line of sight too quickly anyway.

[snip]

But this is with players who can work together. If you're a druid and
you find yourself grouped with a battle cleric then you should stop
nuking and drop back to healing...unless you can convince the cleric
to heal rather than wrath.

An unlikely probability in a pick up group.

Nigel

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....E/cJp4VIKDfScJ

[Jimjam]

I remember this behaviour on either tallon zek or the test server while playing a wood elf ranger on faydwer.

[Dolalin]

Counter evidence that only the last mob of a bunch would run:

12/10/01

Dan Harmon wrote:

>
> Not that I can tell. Druids over level 24 have no reason to buy it at all.
> Ensnare casts a hell of a lot quicker and lasts a hell of a lot longer.
>
> Weeds lasts only a minute...2 minutes shorter than snare and most battles
> it's a bitch getting a ranger to snare even if there's no druid around to do
> it RIGHT so count on a lot of runners if he doesn't even bother casting
> Snare instead of Weeds.
If you are using the snare class spell just to stop runners, then it isn't
necessary to cast it before engaging them. Often in a group I see
people casting snare only on runners... which is to say -not- on the
50% of mobs engaged who don't manage to run at all, due to being
nuked to death or because only the last mob of a cluster will run...
I'm not a big fan of this approach, but if you are using it, then a
faster casting snare would be in order, and duration unimportant.

This is the same choice as the one between Root (and later Immobilize)
and Enstill... root casts faster but doesn't last as long, while Enstill
lasts longer, but takes longer to cast. If what you need is an emergency
park, use Root, if what you need is something long term then you go with
Enstill.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....c/AfYyoEmKLwYJ

Random thoughts as to what might be going on to make the difference between earlier posts and this one:

1) Perhaps deep green mobs would run at 50% regardless of whether their friends were still fighting it out? (this is a strong possibility given the wording of the last 2 posts above)
2) Perhaps behaviour changed at some point in the timeline?
3) Perhaps the people above are just being paranoid in the early game when people didn't understand the mechanics as well?
4) Maybe it varied from dungeon to dungeon or from Vanilla to Kunark etc?

[Dolalin]

Starting to think about #1 to be honest:

12/29/99

> First off, I'll say that I agree with you. But Id also like to point out
> where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
> adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside
they
> are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
> Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
> easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
> presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
> where I think Verant is coming from.

Which is fine and all but the problem is you gain no experience for doing
so.
Its tedious and extremely dangerous and in return for it you get what?
Nothing
but the risk that one of the wimpy swarm of creatures gets away and brings
back a swift death to you. Perhaps a better fix for it would be for Verant
to
rethink the "no xp" for green cons in dungeons, one green creature is
nothing
5-6 of them with one of them breaking off and running is FAR too annoying
to deal with when you get *nothing* in return for it. Its amazing how simple
seeing a You gain party experience can make a fight less annoying then
killing a bunch of trash mobs and get zip, even if it is a tiny bit it adds
up and
you dont feel like that huge fight was for nothing.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/afwleZ-vUEgJ

[DMN]

I'm not sure it was exactly 50%, but I do remember this only happened with non-exp greens. Greens that still gave exp functionally ran at the same time blue or better mobs did.

[Dolalin]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure it was exactly 50%, but I do remember this only happened with non-exp greens. Greens that still gave exp functionally ran at the same time blue or better mobs did.

Yep, sources all agree it was true-green mobs, mobs that gave no xp, which ran at about 50%.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20040927...p/t-10810.html

Ethel Etana
03-15-2001, 02:03 PM
Spent yesterday in Hate as well, and figured I'd add some things here. First thing to mention is that being high on the walls is no longer "safe". You'll get HT'd, attacked and everything else. Run down to the floor and camp out and you'll be fine.

We were headed to pull Maestro and see if he had any new drops or anything. Well, we started out the way I've always seen it done before: Clear mobs back to SWC, move everyone to the throne room, clear Maestro's area, pull Maestro. Well, we got to throne room, got everything cleared and started buffing for Mae, when all the sudden Maestro shows up with a couple of Spites. Whole raid wiped out. We figured someone must have wandered and didn't notice and that we'd pay closer attention next time.

One of our clerics camped out, I got rezzed back in and started right clicking. Just as the last person was popping back in from Rez, Maestro showed up _AGAIN_ and started ripping us into ribbons. A cleric managed to run back to SWC and camp out. Our monk pulled all the bodies back there and I started rezzing folks back in. Again, after about half the folks were rezzed Maestro shows up in SWC and proceeds to kill everyone.

We never did figure out what was happening, but we've got some theories. After the first time, we kept an eye on folks and there wasn't anyone roaming. No one was climbing the walls or anything of the sort. There was a bard playing a song the first two times, but not the third time over at SWC. In all three cases it was a cleric to die first (ie first aggro).

There was another raid fighting upstairs at the same time, so my thoughts is that perhaps some of the mobs were chainging aggro down to Mae and then the rest was just bad pathing for Mae into our raid group. Perhaps aggro is linked now on the beginning mobs upstairs to make you "do things in order"? Anyway, there were also 2 GM's in the zone, so we did consider the idea that they were doing it "on purpose" just to make things difficult, but we all were very much hoping that was not the case. http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/ubb/smile.gif

Anyone else see anything along these lines?

Oh, btw, we did finally manage to drop Maestro and he had standard loot, the hand that spawned after was green as mentioned above but he had a LOT of hit points. Being green he ran at half health--and apparently 5 rangers, 3 druids, 2 SK's and a Necro weren't enough folks for someone to snare before he ran. *sigh* http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/ubb/smile.gif


--
Ethel Etana
54th Super Vicar!
Immortal Vision - Quellious

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020829...=9667278006182

Grouping as a Wizard - further notes/observations By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sat, Aug 19th 7:30 PM 2000 Score: Excellent[4.67]
I have a few points to add:

- There is no reason to stand up when the tank pulls since you can assist while sitting/medding, and if you assist while sitting you also will not have to turn off attack since it never goes on. There are a few criteria for this to hold true:

1.) You are level 35+ and have sit-med. This is important because you DO need to know exactly what the tanks bring in during multiple mob pulls. Simply knowing what they are currently attacking is not enough.

2.) You are not sitting in the pull path, or in multiple mob pulls you are not sitting close enough to aggro the additional mobs.

It takes some experience to get a feeling for just how close you can sit to a mob under various conditions, but this information is important so experiment with it.

- Melee'ing is mostly a waste of time at higher levels, even if you are at full mana. This is an individual call, and you need to decide if your melee output damage is really high enough to warrant using it. I really don't recommend non-spell fighting unless you have a weapon with an effect or a weapon that can cast a spell itself, such as the Soloist Icy Wand. Things to think about before melee'ing:

1.) Swinging = aggro. You don't even have to hit the mob. Anytime you swing at a mob you build on your aggro, even if it is only a small bit.

2.) You have to get close. Distance plays a factor in aggro, and if you have casted on the mob during the fight it may attack unexpectedly if you step into melee range. Also, if you get closer to the mob than the tanks (there just isn't "melee distance", but rather degrees of melee distance) it could also turn onto you.

3.) Your melee skills suck [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. While at lower levels you may be able to significantly contribute to a battle, you will find that this becomes less and less true as your character progresses. Ask yourself, would it be better if I melee'd or should I just cast a light nuke and sit to med briefly? Most of the time you will do more damage from a safer distance by just casting a lower level nuke and then sitting to med the little mana you used up.

- If you are not at full, MEDITATE! Recently I started a new character, and I can't tell you how much I hate to see a Cleric cast a heal, and then continue to stand around watching the battle like a newbie, which perhaps they are. Of course, a few more heals later they are "OOM" because they did not sit and med when they should have. What is a real killer is when they still don't med but instead jump in and try to help my SK melee...what I needed was a heal soon, not someone adding a pitiful amount of melee damage to my own [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. Mana = life blood, if you aren't full and there is nothing urgent to do then MED! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

- I disagree with the original poster - getting the kill isn't your job, making sure the mob doesn't get away is your job. Sometimes this translates into over-nuking the mob as it nears its death, but that is far from the ideal solution. One of the responders already covered snare, and I'd like to expand on that topic. As a mob loses hitpoints it weakens, and if it gets really low on hitpoints its movement slows to a crawl, sometimes even a stop, particularly if it is snared. Your job then, is to nuke it to death with a minimum of over-kill (within 50 damage or so) or to hurt it bad enough to bring it down to "crawl" speed. The tanks should then be merrily slashing and bashing it in the back, bringing it down before it can get far at all (meanwhile you have gone back to medding, right?) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. In dungeons with tight corners it may be necessary to over-nuke the mob, however, as two steps may be all it needs to round the corner for friends [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. The one thing you really want to beware is nuking it hard enough to make it run, but not hard enough to slow it to a crawl. This is a very, VERY bad scenario. Luckily it is controllable with experience - know how much your nukes do, know how much it will take off the mob's life bar, and have different "sized" nukes memmed for different situation (a big nuke and a small nuke). A good wizard should be able to visualize how much his nuke will take off the mob's hitpoint bar and account for the damage that will be done by the other players before ever casting his spell. This is really important - perhaps you know this mob will run at half health, and your nuke will only bring it to 55% health, but you MUST account for the damage done by others during your casting or you may suddenly find the mob down to 45% health instead of the predicted 55%, and running like mad down the corridor to get friends :O. I speak from experience [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

- Area Effect spells need their own thread...actually, they need several [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. I will only say they have their place in a group too.

-Knolann Caelestis
39th lvl Wizard
Tunare

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...tml/16541.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 16541 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Tue Mar 21 18:32:04 GMT 2000 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> kim@stormhaven.org <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [eqbards] Clouding vs. Undead <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-1715120067">On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Kevin L. Crawford wrote:<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; <br/>
&gt; No, you aren't listening<br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; Coward code means they don't attack<br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; During beta EVERYTHING attacked, regardless of your level. In Guk/Cazic etc<br/>
&gt; after a certain point you can waltz by the entry area things that would<br/>
&gt; normally attack someone MUCH lower. And run, then cause trains.<br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; Coward code prevents this by keeping ultra-green mobs from attacking anyone<br/>
&gt; X levels above them. Any mob above 20th is immune to coward code, however,<br/>
&gt; and will attack anyway (dungeons were too easy or something).<br/>
<br/>
</span></blockquote>Ok, that makes more sense. I assumed from your comment that<br/>
you were referring to code that caused green mobs to flee at<br/>
half hp:<br/>
<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; &gt; &gt; the coward code implemented. This was because of the ungodly trains<br/>
&gt; that a<br/>
&gt; &gt; &gt; green conned skeleton would cause if for some reason someone would scare<br/>
&gt; it.<br/>
<br/>
</span></blockquote>--<br/>
John H. Kim<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:kim@...">kim@...</a></div>

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...ards/8956.json

my experience has been this. if you are chaining AND fearing a mob it will<br/>\nstop running at half health. however, if a mob runs from you at half health<br/>\nbecause it is a very low green, it will continue running (slowly of course)<br/>\neven while chained, though the closer to death he becomes the slower he will<br/>\nrun.<br/>\n<br/>\nShada Bladestorm, Level 50 Wood Elf Bard<br/>\nErisi Dlarit, Level 24 High Elf Paladin<br/>\nTyria Sarkin, Level 22 High Elf Wizard<br/>\nManda, Level 15 Wood Elf Warrior<br/>\nMithaniel Marr Server<br/>\n<br/>\n<blockquote><span title="qreply"> &gt; From: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:kim@...">kim@...</a><br/>\n&gt; <br/>\n&gt; Once nice change I noticed is that Chain now stops runners if<br/>\n&gt; they're below half health, which coincidently is when most<br/>\n&gt; greens start to run. If you've got an annoying green runner,<br/>\n&gt; snare (and the old Chain) will not stop it until it's at about<br/>\n&gt; 25% health. The only option used to be rooting it. Now you<br/>\n&gt; can Chain it. It also makes Chain/Screech a much easier combo<br/>\n&gt; to use since your opponent will be immobile half the fight.<br/>\n&gt; <br/>\n&gt; --<br/>\n&gt; John H. Kim

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...html/8956.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 8956 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Wed Oct 20 23:07:43 BST 1999 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> Garramone, Michael (CCI-Las Vegas) <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Resist on chains gotten worse lately? <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-2044374617">my experience has been this. if you are chaining AND fearing a mob it will<br/>
stop running at half health. however, if a mob runs from you at half health<br/>
because it is a very low green, it will continue running (slowly of course)<br/>
even while chained, though the closer to death he becomes the slower he will<br/>
run.<br/>
<br/>
Shada Bladestorm, Level 50 Wood Elf Bard<br/>
Erisi Dlarit, Level 24 High Elf Paladin<br/>
Tyria Sarkin, Level 22 High Elf Wizard<br/>
Manda, Level 15 Wood Elf Warrior<br/>
Mithaniel Marr Server<br/>
<br/>
<blockquote><span title="qreply"> &gt; From: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:kim@...">kim@...</a><br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; Once nice change I noticed is that Chain now stops runners if<br/>
&gt; they're below half health, which coincidently is when most<br/>
&gt; greens start to run. If you've got an annoying green runner,<br/>
&gt; snare (and the old Chain) will not stop it until it's at about<br/>
&gt; 25% health. The only option used to be rooting it. Now you<br/>
&gt; can Chain it. It also makes Chain/Screech a much easier combo<br/>
&gt; to use since your opponent will be immobile half the fight.<br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; --<br/>
&gt; John H. Kim<br/>
&gt; <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:kim@...">kim@...</a> </span></blockquote></div>

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...html/9853.html

<b>Message ID:</b> 9853 <br/>
<b>Date:</b> Wed Nov 10 23:42:34 GMT 1999 <br/>
<b>Author:</b> Garramone, Michael (CCI-Las Vegas) <br/>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Some Comments/Corrections on Updated Song Analysis 21+ (long) <br/>
<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-1369317568">perhaps it is based on your level compared to the mob you are chaining. i<br/>
know if i am chaining frogs in lower guk, they do not stop at 50% health.<br/>
actually come to think of it as i am typing this, what mobs besides ones far<br/>
lower than your level will even think about running at 50%? they don't,<br/>
they stay and fight. so that is why if i am fearing and chaining, no matter<br/>
what it is it will stop moving at 50% health, because i am forcing them to<br/>
run away. on the other hand, mobs close to me in level (that i am not<br/>
fearing) i do not notice this. it's because they are not running until they<br/>
are around 5-10% health anyway, and as soon as i chain them they stop at<br/>
this point.<br/>

https://web.archive.org/web/20030424...03691211123231

RE: Money woes... By: Goo the Braindead, Sage
63 posts
Posted @ Sun, Nov 10th 2:29 AM 2002 Score: Decent[3.00]
Why get 2 PSU's? Need to keep my 1hb up, too [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a reason I'm not doing the GLS quest, my video card kinda screws up the layering & I can't see wisps unless they're at the very top of a hill... with my bard it works because I can bellow-pull (using F8 to target), but with a monk it's really hard to target them. And when they run (they'll start running at 50% health with the level difference), I can't see which way they go, so they just naturally heal up & come back for more. Gets frustrating.

Besides, the GLS quest in Oasis is just the same, and not as remote (or big) as NK.

I'm in WW right now, trying my luck against some giants... we'll see how that goes. So far, mostly silver, copper & some cute dollies from the goblins.

-------------
Too many active characters to list, on multiple servers.

[Jimjam]

The green flee happened even when friends are nearby.