Request for a different policy on (game-changing) specific item camps

[YendorLootmonkey]

These are guilds competing against other guilds. It is a competition for them. You are collateral damage in their competition. They don't intend to deny you the camp or the items on purpose. They are focused on one thing only... gearing up and becoming more capable than their competing guilds.

It has nothing to do with being a dick or whatever you want to call it, although I completely understand how you can feel that way, because you do not have the same mindset that they do.

They are not obligated to the casual player. You're talking about guilds that train and leapfrog each other in the spirit of "competition". This is how it has been since the start of Everquest and when the first uberguild formed on your Live server. There should be no surprises in how things work 11 years later.

Is it greedy? To the casual player, yes. To them, it's just part of the game. Put in time/effort, result in shiny trinket, go to next camp/raid, repeat.

You and them are not playing the same game. It might be called Everquest to both of you, but it's like you're playing flag football against a team that's tackling. You're the person telling the other player in Street Fighter to stop locking you down with Ryu's constant stream of fireballs, when all they want to do is win, while you're trying to set up some arbitrary rules for yourself to even the playing field.

Douchebaggery or not, it's how they chose to play the game. Not one single one of us has the right to tell another how one should play the game, or how one should derive enjoyment out of the game. It just doesn't work that way, and it never has. So you can choose to accept it and wait for a guild locking down a camp to slip up, join a guild yourself that can lock down the camp, spend the time farming stuff so you can buy it (you know, like every melee ever had to buy FBSS from solo casters locking down Frenzy), or sit here and butt heads and get all frustrated over trying to change an entire mindset of like 50% of the server.

[Kika Maslyaka]

ah, but that's what RULES are for.
If there would be no rules at all, then training and KS would be raging all over, since there would be no fear of any punishment.
The argument about guilds and collateral damage is just like argument about Gangs: the Westside Gang is at war with Eastside Gang, and they shot each other whenever they encounter each other. And yes, average citizens do become collateral damage as result of this shootouts, regardless the fact that neither Gang was targeting them specifically - you just happened to be in the line of fire.

But this is also why CIVILIZED societies have formed such institutions as LAW and Law Enforcement, that keeps the Gangs in check.

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

So where, guilds don't give a crap about casual players, we, casual players, don't give a crap about guild's competition - take it elsewhere :P You can compete all you want, as long as it doesn't hurt people around you.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want a rule change so that you can "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets because the current rules don't allow you to do that. Greedy who?

See? It's all a matter of perspective...

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want to "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets based on the current rules.

It's all a matter of perspective...

when Law is unjust - you fight to change it.
The way I (and few others) offer to change the law will establish equality and equal opportunity for ALL players. Current rule #7 heavily benefits closed players circles, and gives them unlimited opportunity to perma-lock mobs/camps/items/whatever. I cannot possible recognize this as ethical

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

will establish equality and equal opportunity for ALL players.

You all had equal opportunity to secure whatever camps you desired most on Kunark launch night, and to hand them off as you saw fit. Others executed their plans more quickly and efficiently than you. Now, because you missed out, you want to change it all up to benefit yourself and your style of play. What makes your style of play "more right"?

You have equal opportunity to join one of the guilds that have the manpower and drive to wait for another guild to slip up so they can take over the camp. You can waltz right in as a member of that guild, get into the camp, and be part of the loot rotation.

But that equal opportunity isn't good enough for you. You want special consideration because you are not willing to devote the time/effort that other players do. You want the same loot without devoting the same time/effort into getting it. Tell me how that is equal, since you're so interested in equality? :P

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You all had equal opportunity to secure whatever camps you desired most on Kunark launch night, and to hand them off as you saw fit. Others executed their plans more quickly and efficiently than you. Now, because you missed out, you want to change it all up to benefit yourself and your style of play. What makes your style of play "more right"?

You have equal opportunity to join one of the guilds that have the manpower and drive to wait for another guild to slip up so they can take over the camp. You can waltz right in as a member of that guild, get into the camp, and be part of the loot rotation.

But that equal opportunity isn't good enough for you. You want special consideration because you are not willing to devote the time/effort that other players do. You want the same loot without devoting the same time/effort into getting it. Tell me how that is equal, since you're so interested in equality? :P

We going in circles here - you advocating monopolization on a principle - who ever was first is ETERNAL KEEPER.
Being FIRST only gives you a right to be first and nothing more.
You get your loot, now move, and let me get mine. I have been siting here for 5 hours to. Its your GUILD-MATE who has been sleeping all day and JUST LOGGED IN, and already has a camp spot and place in line reserved for him, who wants special consideration.
I have served my time in line - I EARNED IT - he didn't.


To: Loly Taa (our neighborhood Lineage hardass):
go to your PUBLIC PARK, at 5am when no one there, and they try to explain all the new coming visitors, that all 500 benches in the park have already been claimed by you for your friends and family, who will arrive later.
Its a communal property. You get 1 spot, and that's it. Now MOVE!

[Loly Taa]

The problem I think the QQers have is something like this...

The QQers (WoW players?) think that this is like going to the grocery store... You walk in, grab your groceries, wait in line, pay and leave. Since it's a business establishment that is just out to make money there is no special treatment given like allowing people to cut in line or to buy up all of a specific item that's on sale (limitations on amount of items that can be bought for the sale price) etc.

The reality is, it's nothing like a grocery store, mall, or other normal business. The setting is more akin to that of a park or campground. In another example;

The guilds camping these "coveted", "game changing" spawns- are much like people who show up early in the morning to grab the best spot at the beach. There is no requirement for them to have a line for other people to take the spot they've already gotten. It's expected that other people who show up at the beach late are going to piss off and find a different location to hang out in if someone is in a spot they would like to or usually normally hang out at. At the beach there is nothing preventing me from showing up as soon as the park opens and getting the most prime spot on the beach- and also nothing preventing me from passing my spot on the beach off to my friends who show up later to hang out with me. At the beach I'm under no obligation to talk to other beach goers or even acknowledge them sans respecting their personal rights. I'm at the beach to relax, perhaps hang out with friends who may show up and leave at different times of the day. I'm not required to socialize with the general public if I choose not to.

The complainers are trying to think of the server like a grocery store or book store. The problem is- there is no money being made here. It's an open resource freely available to everyone... If anything the server and it's camps are more like parks or beaches which everyone is available to use freely- but everyone has the expectation of being able to have their own private space, available on a first come, first served basis- until they decide to leave; regardless of when their friends decide to show up and leave.

I could go to a campground right now and rent out a space pretty much for the rest of the summer- even perhaps the best space at the campground. Is that unfair? No- it's life. You're not paying anything, you aren't owed anything.

[Nug]

I'd really hate to read through all these posts to see if anyone's brought this up, but...

Why not just bring your own group and park where they are sitting if they don't want to share and see who's can do better? Is THAT against the rules?

[baalzy]

Originally Posted by Nug [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd really hate to read through all these posts to see if anyone's brought this up, but...

Why not just bring your own group and park where they are sitting if they don't want to share and see who's can do better? Is THAT against the rules?

Yes, actually it is.

As long as they're capable of handling the camp on their own, don't leave the area, and don't go noticeably afk; they can, according to the rules, cycle in whoever they want and exclude the other group indefinitely.

[Tsuken]

The problem is that this server is following the everquest classic timeline, or at least tries to. The difference with the real classic experience is that nobody knew which items would be nerfed, nor when. But on this server "everybody" knows which items will be removed and around what time it will happen. This puts each of those items very high on many guild's wanted-list, even while it's still dropping.

Following the classic timeline, can't recreate the classic experience completely, because on this server people will have fore-knowledge of what will happen in the future.

There could have been added other (non-classic) solutions to give each player a chance at these rare items, without them being over-camped. For example, each of the to-be-nerfed items could have been made LORE NO DROP. Making them unable to ruin the future-economy and therefore much less attractive to get, except for personal use.