Bard / Monk capabilities

[Spyder73]

Warrior/Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Rogue/Monk

Please explain where the Bard fits into this group comp which is the min/max group comp that a very high percentage of people aim for.

In no situation is a Bard ideal, Bards are ideal in non-ideal situations. People don't like intentionally forming their group to be non-ideal 50+

I don't want you guys thinking I am saying bards are worthless, they are not and properly played extremely powerful. Problem is 3/4th of the time they are not properly played and a sh!t Bard is worse than just having the group slot blank. Risk/reward is low

You guys are leading this guy to believe the road to being a Bard is easier than it is.

[Legidias]

For xp? Ideal is Bard + cleric (or shammy) + 4 rogues. If theres a good charmable mob, you can sub in an enchanter, but you really wont get any better xp than this set up as its primed for maximum kill speed. The group you proposed is like the general "seems good" group, which is basically the opposite from min/max.

I dunno what era you're from, but you got some overlaps in there. Most groups would only want to pick 2 from the cleric / shammy / enchanter classes and not all 3 as they are kinda redundant if you have all of them when you can fill in that slot with DPS or better utility.

Any class is shit if not played properly. A cleric not healing right? dead group. An enchanter not charming / mezzing right? dead group. A tank not holding aggro right? dead group. A monk not pulling right? dead group.

And as I stated in previous post, if nothing else of any of your considerations, bards are the ultimate insurance policy. Grab aggro of 25 mobs and not get killed without heals for 10 secs is a game changer in both group and raid.

[Spyder73]

So for XP groups you are claiming that from 50-60 Bards are good tanks? Ok bud

[Legidias]

Yes.

You do not seem to understand the meaning of "min/max" very well. It doesnt mean to kill stuff in safety, taking your time, as your group was set up to do. It means aiming towards one thing to the maximum, disregarding other factors. Is a bard the BEST damage mitigation tank? hell no. But for xp group you dont need warriors discing everything.

What the bard tank does, is allow the group as a whole to focus on kill speed, maximizing xp / time. Yes there's inherent risk, but thats part of min/max. If you want to be the best tank, you're gonna give up on some DPS. If you want max DPS, you're gonna have to give up on some survivability.

I would even say, a bard is the best part of a goup for max dps the moment it has selo's consonant chain song in your mid-20's. Go anywhere outdoors, grab some DPS group members. You can just snare kite it around while your DPS bash it. It wont lose aggro cause selo's chain is basically the best aggro in the game. You dont take any mana to use it, and no one in the group takes damage. You can keep killing as long as you have energy to be at the keyboard.

[Spyder73]

Bards are one of the worst DPS classes in the game so not sure what you are getting at. And despite you just saying they can tank the reality is they can not tank well 50+ even in sh!t spots like KC. What made them good below 50 is a detriment post 50 (IE Snare/Slow argoing)

[Dreenk317]

Originally Posted by Spyder73 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards are one of the worst DPS classes in the game so not sure what you are getting at. And despite you just saying they can tank the reality is they can not tank well 50+ even in sh!t spots like KC. What made them good below 50 is a detriment post 50 (IE Snare/Slow argoing)

I have personally been in groups featuring a bard as the main tank in the following camps, multiple times, with great success. Seb C/E (yes tanked emp), Seb King camp, Seb disco, KC hands room, Kael plate house and arena. And PoM puppets (tanked all but bristlebane).

Bards make great tanks, same defensive table as warriors, unlike rangers...

In fact, unless I'm killing something that needs defensive, I'd take a bard tank over an equal level warrior tank every time in an exp grind. The only caveat is the bard has to know what they are doing. Where as warriors just have to hit there target key, attack, and taunt every so often [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Spyder73]

Originally Posted by Dreenk317 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have personally been in groups featuring a bard as the main tank in the following camps, multiple times, with great success. Seb C/E (yes tanked emp), Seb King camp, Seb disco, KC hands room, Kael plate house and arena. And PoM puppets (tanked all but bristlebane).

Bards make great tanks, same defensive table as warriors, unlike rangers...

In fact, unless I'm killing something that needs defensive, I'd take a bard tank over an equal level warrior tank every time in an exp grind. The only caveat is the bard has to know what they are doing. Where as warriors just have to hit there target key, attack, and taunt every so often [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR - With Shaman slow any class in the game (including casters) are capable of tanking.

[SiouxNation]

A well played bard is without a doubt an extremely valuable tool. A monk has a low ceiling for plays to be made. As laid out here, bard charm plus mezzing is where they shine. Bard is the highest skill cap class in this game, and it’s not even close.

The problem with bards is so many bad ones play here. Anytime I try and give tips to a bad bard they usually just tell me to stop telling them how to play. Meanwhile we’re at ledge in FM and they are standing still playing three songs and not attacking.

If you play bard use your abilities and push the limits, lead and form groups and you will make a name for yourself and have a ton of fun in the process.

[Legidias]

Spyder you still arent understanding what I am saying. Bards as a class by themselves are not the BEST DPS or BEST mitigation. What they do, is allow the group to have the MAXIMUM possible DPS combination. If you have a warrior (or knight) tank, then you will need a second slot filled by slow / haste / cc which again lowers DPS by a significatn amount.

I could tank Kael arena at 58 in thurg gear. Tanking isnt that hard. If you have somewhat decent gear and not leather, KC is a joke to tank in the setup Ive given since mobs die so fast. I even once had a group of me, a monk, and 2 rogues. We would pull mobs into RCY, and I could fear / snare them and the mob would die before getting to the exit door of RCY (roughly 20-30sec kill time). Again, the point of a min/max xp group isnt safety. Its killing speed. With 4 rogues, mobs die so fast you barely take damage. The group composition isnt to tank a mob for ages without taking damage. Its maxed out DPS which means more xp, less damage taken.

[Spyder73]

I'm really not trying to get into a fight with you guys about Bards. I have a 52 Bard I use as a Naggy alt and I love playing him. I am just trying to be realistic about what OP can expect.

There are way too many bad Bards compared to other classes is the main problem, plus I think the XP penalty stigma is just ingrained in some old schoolers.

Example, a Bard who doesn't know how to break his Charms will very quickly have the group asking him to stop charming because it is a nuisance and not a positive to be staring at a mob trying to attack it for 6 seconds wondering wtf is going on. Example, a bard who continues to Mez sh!t when we have an enchanter will very quickly be asked to STOP mezing sh!t because their mez is inferior by A LOT. Example, certain camps your songs become useless due to mob level. Example, Bard refuses to add melee damage and thinks he should just play Cantina with his lute on. Example, Bard will only melee and forgets to keep pumping mana while in combat so he can add in a sh!ty damage shield or some other nonsense. Example, Bard will immediately start Slowing and pulling agro draining healers mana pools because he cant figure out when to cast Slow properly

The examples of bad (and fairly common/easy) mistakes for a Bard is enormous in comparison. A monk does solid DPS and about the only thing they can screw up is pulling too many mobs, dying, or pulling too slowly.

EVEN SO, A perfectly played monk IMO is more desirable on P99 than a perfectly played Bard due to DPS disparity between the 2. DPS is king on P99