Ruining EQ

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Greed of players plain and simple.

When you start talking dragon pixels, there are players who's greed show no boundaries. Players early on found ways to cheat other players out of their dragon pixels using exploits or just dirty play.

To try to reel in these players, rules were made.

The same greedy neckbeard players found loopholes and new ways to exploit around the rules, so then more rules are made.

This pattern seems to have continued since p99 raiding came into existence, and so you got what we have now.

Some people blame the staff but in all honesty it's not staff it's 100% player-made problems culminating from greed.

It's sad because it's just fucking pixels.

The problem isn't extreme greed. Most of the people across both hardcore and casual guilds are not bad people. The problems come from competition/overpopulation and the scarcity model of EQ.

I do primarily blame the server staff for the mess that P99 raiding is. The raid rules are set by the staff not the players. On the whole they haven't been well thought out or considered if the goal is to have a healthy raid scene with both hardcore and casual guilds getting a take of the pixels. For that matter I can't see how the server rule set is easy or fun for the GMs themselves to administer.

If you actually raided you'd know how inane a lot of them are. Perhaps this is half the issue, the GMs don't raid as they aren't allowed to (conflict of interest). Most of the input is from the 1% neckbeards and the rules are very twisted to cater to the worst kinds of behavior.

The tracker FTE rule would have barely made sense in Kunark let alone Velious. It creates a bunch of toxic side effects for any zone with more than one raid target. There's a huge incentive to pull everything to the zone in to avoid being permanently DQed. This in turn makes guilds train each other often unintentionally. That's not to mention all the inanity regarding being DQed simply for exping in a zone while a boss happened to pop.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Nexii [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't extreme greed. Most of the people across both hardcore and casual guilds are not bad people. The problems come from competition/overpopulation and the scarcity model of EQ.

I do primarily blame the server staff for the mess that P99 raiding is. The raid rules are set by the staff not the players. On the whole they haven't been well thought out or considered if the goal is to have a healthy raid scene with both hardcore and casual guilds getting a take of the pixels. For that matter I can't see how the server rule set is easy or fun for the GMs themselves to administer.

If you actually raided you'd know how inane a lot of them are. Perhaps this is half the issue, the GMs don't raid as they aren't allowed to (conflict of interest). Most of the input is from the 1% neckbeards and the rules are very twisted to cater to the worst kinds of behavior.

The tracker FTE rule would have barely made sense in Kunark let alone Velious. It creates a bunch of toxic side effects for any zone with more than one raid target. There's a huge incentive to pull everything to the zone in to avoid being permanently DQed. This in turn makes guilds train each other often unintentionally. That's not to mention all the inanity regarding being DQed simply for exping in a zone while a boss happened to pop.

I respect your perspective and how you put your thought on the matter here.

But when players exploit rule set after rule set after rule set, how is this admin's fault?

If players actually honored any sort of PnP, the crap that goes on wouldn't happen in the first place.

Every infraction that occurs is because some greedy neckbeard nerd is not following guidelines.

Every time rules are set down, players work to find ways to exploit the rules or find ways around them thus forcing the hand of admin to create more rules. It's similar to how anti-virus programmers and virus creators interact. The programmer constantly is having to adapt and change because the virus creators always are looking and finding ways to work around the anti-virus programmers anti-virus programs.

I don't need to be an active raider now to understand one huge component to the problems in the raid scene is player greed.

I was in a raid guild 2 different times, and during the last 3 month stint got to see enough within that guild to understand players raiding often times are in the guild only for themselves and are extraordinarily greedy. It was so annoying I no longer wanted to log my toons in while in that guild.

I am objective enough to understand this mentality is possessed by top tier raid guilds as well, and this is why you have players constantly trying to cheat their way to get pixels before other guilds can, it's greed that fuels them not poorly made raid rules that are in effect.

Players need to take responsibility and stop trying to pretend all the problems within the raid scene is caused by admin or bad rule sets. No one is making these players do what they do except themselves ffs.

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I respect your perspective and how you put your thought on the matter here.

But when players exploit rule set after rule set after rule set, how is this admin's fault?

If players actually honored any sort of PnP, the crap that goes on wouldn't happen in the first place.

Every infraction that occurs is because some greedy neckbeard nerd is not following guidelines.

Every time rules are set down, players work to find ways to exploit the rules or find ways around them thus forcing the hand of admin to create more rules. It's similar to how anti-virus programmers and virus creators interact. The programmer constantly is having to adapt and change because the virus creators always are looking and finding ways to work around the anti-virus programmers anti-virus programs.

I don't need to be an active raider now to understand one huge component to the problems in the raid scene is player greed.

I was in a raid guild 2 different times, and during the last 3 month stint got to see enough within that guild to understand players raiding often times are in the guild only for themselves and are extraordinarily greedy. It was so annoying I no longer wanted to log my toons in while in that guild.

I am objective enough to understand this mentality is possessed by top tier raid guilds as well, and this is why you have players constantly trying to cheat their way to get pixels before other guilds can, it's greed that fuels them not poorly made raid rules that are in effect.

Players need to take responsibility and stop trying to pretend all the problems within the raid scene is caused by admin or bad rule sets. No one is making these players do what they do except themselves ffs.

There's a lot of petitions in the grey area of the rules. Many aren't ruled on one way or another as they are inconclusive.

As well unintentional violations. Do you think Lord Bob intended to violate the convoluted tracker FTE rule? Or say you're on a COTH mage and you get trained, congratulations you're in violation of tracker FTE! I guess you're greedy for trying to COTH your guild and save some time.

Wouldn't expect a very casual/non-raider to understand the scene. All I see here is a lot of wishing that everyone was as virtuous a white knight as you.

[Rivera]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I respect your perspective and how you put your thought on the matter here.

But when players exploit rule set after rule set after rule set, how is this admin's fault?

If players actually honored any sort of PnP, the crap that goes on wouldn't happen in the first place.

Every infraction that occurs is because some greedy neckbeard nerd is not following guidelines.

Every time rules are set down, players work to find ways to exploit the rules or find ways around them thus forcing the hand of admin to create more rules. It's similar to how anti-virus programmers and virus creators interact. The programmer constantly is having to adapt and change because the virus creators always are looking and finding ways to work around the anti-virus programmers anti-virus programs.

I don't need to be an active raider now to understand one huge component to the problems in the raid scene is player greed.

I was in a raid guild 2 different times, and during the last 3 month stint got to see enough within that guild to understand players raiding often times are in the guild only for themselves and are extraordinarily greedy. It was so annoying I no longer wanted to log my toons in while in that guild.

I am objective enough to understand this mentality is possessed by top tier raid guilds as well, and this is why you have players constantly trying to cheat their way to get pixels before other guilds can, it's greed that fuels them not poorly made raid rules that are in effect.

Players need to take responsibility and stop trying to pretend all the problems within the raid scene is caused by admin or bad rule sets. No one is making these players do what they do except themselves ffs.

hahaha. my goodness you dont give up [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Tru [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Anyone who raids regularly, keyword there, understands that more than 2 members (aka trackers) past the zone line disqualifies that guild from anything that pops during that time. Very old rule that BDA got nailed for by parking their raid force at Juggs for Trak."

Curious how this rule came to be, b/c isn't half the fun of EQ being that there you are, with your group(s) in a zone exp'ing away, and you know a cool target may pop at some time, and there you are when it pops, so yay you go fight. This rule seems to be quite the exact opposite - if you're in a zone when your hoped for mob pops then FU get out. This surprises me mucho.

Is the reason this rule came to be the following: were some guilds perma camping certain targets to the exclusion of others? Turn taking was just not seen to be a noble thing compared to getting the loots for your peeps? Guild membership was seen as "team topteam is best so we get it all"?

If yes, would a time out after guild engage mob (say, a month) be a work around? If xyz guild kills xyz mob then they are done with that mob for abc amount of time.

The effect of this would be similar to a ban without the shade. Perhaps. Probably it has been suggested/tried/examined...has it?

A bit more history for those of us who are interested, new to raiding, wondering why "play nice" is hard to make happen.

I suppose I get that some ppl like to compete, so that being first, getting the best ==== keeping the next guy down. That's how some ppl see competition. ??? Thanks for any and all history and insight relative to that history.

Its a horribly thick and unnatural rule...resulting in a mini-game played out called FTE. Watching this shit actually makes the classic in me die a little death everytime I watch two idiots scramble like its the special olympics 500m dash to win pixels.

[Argh]

Originally Posted by Tru [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Curious how this rule came to be

It's the latest iteration of a rule that moved the scene of poopsocking away from mobs' spawn point. When there was no rule like this, 100+ bozos would sit on a mob's spawn point spamming attacks/abilities/clickies/petattack to get fte/kill it.

When regulating only that you couldn't be on the spawn point, it led to areas like poop mountain (on trak), where the nerd herd simply huddled one hundred feet away from the mobs spawn point.

This rule now where you can only have two bozos passed the zone line now means there is an invisible 'starting line' where pullers have to start from once the mob spawns. Anyone beyond the starting line before a mob spawns is considered a tracker. You can have two trackers in use at a time, and they can only track--not assist in the pull.

Of the poopsocking meta games, this iteration is not the worst.

[kotton05]

The barrier of entry is so vast any new guild will be rule lawyered away..

[Fasttimes]

Originally Posted by kotton05 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The barrier of entry is so vast any new guild will be rule lawyered away..

petition already in, enjoy your 7 days

[Argh]

The real barrier of entry is variance.

[skarlorn]

The real barrier to entry is not looking as cool as warriors with epics