LoS member posts about raiding in Jan 2002

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So finally, my question. Do you think there's raid content congestion on Project 1999, at this late stage in its life; and do you think Tigole's complaints have merit, if so what do you think the answers are?

Sure there is some content congestion imo on P99.

The issue is that this server is basically a playground created by Rogean, who has left it open for all to enjoy with him, as far as I can tell from what he has done and what he has made clear he is going to do. His plans are concrete, and none of his plans involve instances, or any modern methods to deal with content congestion.

The only real solution that isn't a long term solution that they have already confirmed IS in the works is to create a Green server. This will be a freshly created new P99 server that will follow the timeline more correctly from the start of Everquest till the end of Velious, if I understand it correctly.

The discontent of raiders here is of little consequence to the grand scheme of things I think, as content congestion simply isn't of any concern to the creator of this server.

Adding any instances, or other modern day solutions to fix this problem on P99 simply Is Not Classic™.

[Maschenny]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure there is some content congestion imo on P99.

The issue is that this server is basically a playground created by Rogean, who has left it open for all to enjoy with him, as far as I can tell from what he has done and what he has made clear he is going to do. His plans are concrete, and none of his plans involve instances, or any modern methods to deal with content congestion.

The only real solution that isn't a long term solution that they have already confirmed IS in the works is to create a Green server. This will be a freshly created new P99 server that will follow the timeline more correctly from the start of Everquest till the end of Velious, if I understand it correctly.

The discontent of raiders here is of little consequence to the grand scheme of things I think, as content congestion simply isn't of any concern to the creator of this server.

Adding any instances, or other modern day solutions to fix this problem on P99 simply Is Not Classic™.

Does Green solve congestion problems? Wont A/A just play on both servers? I dont think camping evil eye will damper their productivity on blue at all.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Maschenny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does Green solve congestion problems? Wont A/A just play on both servers? I dont think camping evil eye will damper their productivity on blue at all.

Well, I pointed that out, it's not a long term solution not one bit. Green would inevitably end up exactly as Blue has. So yes, I agree with you.

My other point was, Rogean isn't concerned about these issues, he built the playground and you can choose to play in it the way it's constructed or go play on a different playground.

[Swish]

Instancing is awful in terms of a cohesive online world.

"You're in our world now" loses its meaning completely. More like you're in your own spawned instance now, amirite?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Instancing is awful in terms of a cohesive online world.

"You're in our world now" loses its meaning completely. More like you're in your own spawned instance now, amirite?

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

I always felt LDoN was way more social than what many expansions offered. You were forced to group, despite the instances, and there were a bunch of well populated hubs that people hung out at between instances. It was great!

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also to point out... how many of you have loved Sneaksy's stories, a Deparment of Fun event, EverQuest mystery vids, or Filbus vs. Llandris for the battle of Rivervale??

I certainly have, it inspires me in some respects to see what this game SHOULD be about, and I would argue what the true original intention of EverQuest was about (community fun, roleplay, etc). Even guilds like <Auld Lang Syne> and <No Time To Rez> are creating fun spins on how to enjoy this wonderful game.

Entitled raiders demanding more, more, more for pixels they rarely use (my precioussss profile) is really odd to me.

Totally agree, I've always felt the spirit of EQ was collaboration, and those who think they are winning through exclusion have misunderstood the most basic precepts of the game. But that is just, like, my opinion, man.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

I don't remember wow having some intense sense of community back before you could find groups and/or teleport to dungeons from anywhere.


I feel like it's abundantly clear that instancing kills community (and sense of community). Without instancing, players run into each other all the time in dungeons, in chat channels, at camps. You see people who aren't your friends or guildies, other guild groups, other guild raids. You run into people higher level than you, lower level than you, more hardcore than you, more casual than you. For better or worse, you have to deal with them. It behooves players to play nice, and most people understand that and prefer cooperation (or at least civility) because of it. It makes the whole game play out differently ... finding guilds, claiming camps, raiding, buying and selling items, leveling up (for both alts and new players), etc.

Everything feels contrived in instanced games. It's like FPS games or MOBAs compared to heavily modded, multi-player (but not MMO) RPGs. Communities in general are shit in the former, and imo it's because there's no penalty for being toxic and no reward for cooperating outside of your clan, no exposure to others in a natural setting so that people act like actual human beings through their avatars instead of like screeching autists. Communities in the latter are generally awesome because they're just the opposite; you generally need to not be a pariah or there's little point in that sort of a game.


Your mention of instant teleports to instances is a separate issue I think, but still an important one. Limited mobility in EQ led to much of the same things that non-instancing did. You ran into a wide variety of people in your travels, and you generally had reasons to be a well-balanced person in your dealings with those folks. People grumbled about luclin a bit because it got rid of this. People grumbled about POP a lot because it absolutely destroyed it.

Modern MMOs are loaded with fast mounts, flightpaths, teleportation, home points, etc. Wow didn't start off with a TON of it... but 60% mounts at 40 were about like giving every level 35 character in classic EQ jboots... and 100% mounts at 60 were about like giving every level 50 in classic EQ selo's. Plus wow had flightpaths! It was practically POP-level transportation right from the beginning, lessening contact between players in the name of convenience and less-delayed (though not yet instant) gratification.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't remember wow having some intense sense of community back before you could find groups and/or teleport to dungeons from anywhere.


I feel like it's abundantly clear that instancing kills community (and sense of community). Without instancing, players run into each other all the time in dungeons, in chat channels, at camps. You see people who aren't your friends or guildies, other guild groups, other guild raids. You run into people higher level than you, lower level than you, more hardcore than you, more casual than you. For better or worse, you have to deal with them. It behooves players to play nice, and most people understand that and prefer cooperation (or at least civility) because of it. It makes the whole game play out differently ... finding guilds, claiming camps, raiding, buying and selling items, leveling up (for both alts and new players), etc.

Everything feels contrived in instanced games. It's like FPS games or MOBAs compared to heavily modded, multi-player (but not MMO) RPGs. Communities in general are shit in the former, and imo it's because there's no penalty for being toxic and no reward for cooperating outside of your clan, no exposure to others in a natural setting so that people act like actual human beings through their avatars instead of like screeching autists. Communities in the latter are generally awesome because they're just the opposite; you generally need to not be a pariah or there's little point in that sort of a game.


Your mention of instant teleports to instances is a separate issue I think, but still an important one. Limited mobility in EQ led to much of the same things that non-instancing did. You ran into a wide variety of people in your travels, and you generally had reasons to be a well-balanced person in your dealings with those folks. People grumbled about luclin a bit because it got rid of this. People grumbled about POP a lot because it absolutely destroyed it.

Modern MMOs are loaded with fast mounts, flightpaths, teleportation, home points, etc. Wow didn't start off with a TON of it... but 60% mounts at 40 were about like giving every level 35 character in classic EQ jboots... and 100% mounts at 60 were about like giving every level 50 in classic EQ selo's. Plus wow had flightpaths! It was practically POP-level transportation right from the beginning, lessening contact between players in the name of convenience and less-delayed (though not yet instant) gratification.

I drew my conclusion from modern games like SWTOR which heavily relies on group finder and matchmaking for warzones and flashpoints (dungeons). I suppose WOW could be included too, at least the most modern version of it anyway.

I see your point, but I don't think many players are bumping into eachother in raid zones where guilds mobilize to kill dragons on p99, let alone are these zones meeting grounds for straggling adventurers.

Sorry, I just don't agree that instances kill communities on MMOs.

[isoka]

Looks like to me LoS didn't actually want to kill AoW else they would have put an alarm and wake up during the night to kill it while euros / asians would leave him up in arena.

[Whirled]

I posted here before RnF