Evergreen State College: Collective Psychosis

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll never understand the alternative. Even the most Jeffersonian of Founding Father rugged-individualist libertarian teapartycrats is a statist in the eyes of an anarchist.

Every time a group of people get together and make a rule, and agree to enforce that rule, they've made a state. It turns out, time and time again, in society after society for tens of thousands of years, from tribes of berry-pickers to worldwide empires, humans prefer to make rules and enforce them.

I'm not posting in here because I'm trying to deny history. But it's not like humanity's history of life under government has been full of peace and love and prosperity, right? It's only been in the last few centuries (out of so many thousands of years), as government has become somewhat less absolute and personal freedoms have generally been greater, that more than a handful of humans rose above bare subsistence.

You say you'll never understand the alternative to government, and I guess it's your prerogative to either refuse to learn or to believe there's nothing to be learned. But personally, I just can't see any reason why a statement like "all human interaction should be voluntary" can be wrong. Denying anarchy is admitting you want to do violence to others who are doing no harm to you, whether you do it via a state or a gang or directly.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not posting in here because I'm trying to deny history. But it's not like humanity's history of life under government has been full of peace and love and prosperity, right? It's only been in the last few centuries (out of so many thousands of years), as government has become somewhat less absolute and personal freedoms have generally been greater, that more than a handful of humans rose above bare subsistence.

You say you'll never understand the alternative to government, and I guess it's your prerogative to either refuse to learn or to believe there's nothing to be learned. But personally, I just can't see any reason why a statement like "all human interaction should be voluntary" can be wrong. Denying anarchy is admitting you want to do violence to others who are doing no harm to you, whether you do it via a state or a gang or directly.

It's not that I plug my ears at the mention of anarchism and go "lalalalala", it's just that I see it as logically unsound. Anarchism denies mass cooperation which I think is absolutely integral to human prosperity and progress.

The only issue I have with "all human interaction being voluntary" is you shouldn't be able to enjoy the benefits of society (cooperation, safety, rules), without the responsibilities (taxes, civic duty, mutual aid/defense, rules). Which means if you decided you didn't want to sign the contract, you'd have to leave. Unfortunately, the planet is basically full, and all the world's resources are spoken for. We also share an environment.

By denying anarchy I just admit that violence is the way in which the contract is enforced-- if somebody breaks the rules, that causes harm, and violence (force) is society's recourse. In a perfect world the contract is voluntary, you'd be able to leave and go homestead somewhere in the frontier and make your own rules, but I just don't see it.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not that I plug my ears at the mention of anarchism and go "lalalalala", it's just that I see it as logically unsound. Anarchism denies mass cooperation which I think is absolutely integral to human prosperity and progress.

The only issue I have with "all human interaction being voluntary" is you shouldn't be able to enjoy the benefits of society (cooperation, safety, rules), without the responsibilities (taxes, civic duty, mutual aid/defense, rules). Which means if you decided you didn't want to sign the contract, you'd have to leave. Unfortunately, the planet is basically full, and all the world's resources are spoken for. We also share an environment.

By denying anarchy I just admit that violence is the way in which the contract is enforced-- if somebody breaks the rules, that causes harm, and violence (force) is society's recourse. In a perfect world the contract is voluntary, you'd be able to leave and go homestead somewhere in the frontier and make your own rules, but I just don't see it.

As I see it, all of this just comes back to the social "contract" not being anything like a contract. It's an excuse to force one group's wants onto others. You say I shouldn't get to benefit from society without paying, but how it really works out is every individual is paying for a ton of "benefits" that they don't actually want, subsidizing government inefficiency, propping up cronyism, etc. There's also tons of wiggle room for people to be free riders with VERY little incentive for anyone to do anything about it.

Privatizing everything wouldn't collapse society. People would still be able to get together and decide what they want to contribute towards a public society. But nobody would be threatened with violence by a nearly-omnipotent state to pay for any more than they actually want to... and since everything is private, individuals have incentive to make sure there aren't free riders or inefficiency, etc.

[mickmoranis]

lol well Im a misanthrope and pretty sure lune is a eugenicist... but a statist, thats a first for both of us.

[mickmoranis]

one thing I bet we all agree on.

fuck this bitch:
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[mickmoranis]

its perfectly legal to go live in the woods and not pay taxes, but tecmos if you think you deserve to live on streets and drink water payed for by other peoples taxes then you're gonna have a bad time.

What is different between reality and this utopia you describe?

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

its perfectly legal to go live in the woods and not pay taxes, but tecmos if you think you deserve to live on streets and drink water payed for by other peoples taxes then you're gonna have a bad time.

What is different between reality and this utopia you describe?

Lol. It's not like roads and municipal water systems are what most tax money is spent on.

Regardless, I don't want to be a free rider, I just think it's immoral to force your opinions onto others. And that's all government does. I'm perfectly happy to pay for what I want to use. I just don't want to be made to pay for what someone else thinks is a good idea.

And no, it's not legal to go live in the woods.

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And no, it's not legal to go live in the woods.

tell that to the FBI that has to fabricate weapon sales to arrest the hero's that do.

[Pokesan]

yo taxation-is-theft-dude, did the beast get his cut of you RMT gainz?

u goin prison?

[mickmoranis]

Im having a hard time believing that my mom and dad were threatened with violence, and that is why they were good, law abiding citizezns.

A long time ago we didnt have a goverment and religion just stoned you to death if you screwed up... Sounds like without goverment we're in a much more forced/violent society than with.

Altho the current leaders of america would not like you to know that, which is why they will continue to rule you via MANIPULATION, not the threat of force.

Americans are more and more manipulated every day. The irony is the machine just needed cranking, now the citizens do the manipulation themselves.

Its never the threat of force you need to worry about, its the people manipulating you into thinking there is a force you need to worry about when the things theyre telling you theyre taking from you are, education, healthcare, roads, police, your rights etc.

its hilarious.