Save the Server, Allow guild instanced raid zones

[dafier]

Vex Thal and SSRA. I had great times in both.

[rayeatts]

After reading though this entire thread and considering everybody's opinions, it seems to me that the best change to be made is to slightly reduce variance to see what the effect on raid mob competition would be.

The goal should be to keep some amount of variance to give leading guilds an edge, but reduce that variance to give casual guilds a chance.

[drktmplr12]

Originally Posted by rayeatts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After reading though this entire thread and considering everybody's opinions, it seems to me that the best change to be made is to slightly reduce variance to see what the effect on raid mob competition would be.

The goal should be to keep some amount of variance to give leading guilds an edge, but reduce that variance to give casual guilds a chance.

you bring up the crux of variance. This would really not be a problem if server repops synchronized the spawns periodically and variance was lowered to 2-3 hour window.

Lets remember that repops and 0 variance is classic. variance was implemented because there wasn't enough raid targets to keep people busy. So when one was about to spawn-EVERYONE showed up.

I would argue that with velious, there are enough targets to keep everyone busy enough so that variance can be reasonably lowered or eliminated all together.

for argument's sake:

lets assume guild A is keyed for ST and another guild B is getting keys, but cannot compete in ST.

without repops and with variance as high as it is:

the spawn times for necklace dropping mobs (and all others for that matter) tend to diverge and guild A can effectively take every single one they want since they are the largest with most play time and are the most available for tracking. guild A takes 90% of ST key holders and laughs on their way to ST. This is okay and normal since they are putting more effort into the game. The problem is that variance really tips the scales in their favor and perpetuates the state of end game.

With lower variance and simulated repops:

guild A will race to dragons that drop necklaces and ignore ST for as long as they want, since no one else can enter. but they can't possibly get them ALL since others will be competing. With as many necklace dropping targets as there are, no reason why guild B can't get ST keyed to compete within a period of 3-4 months. there would also be (1) higher degree of predictability (far from certain though) to spawn times which helps people plan their game time (2) the tendency for spawn timers to diverge is dampened significantly (3) repops would force more keys into guild B hands, but only if guild B can mobilize and kill things before guild A.

Once B is keyed, guild A needs to race to ST on a repop. Both guilds A and B are now competing for ST and leaving necklace targets alone for guilds C, D, E and F.

this ended up being alot longer than i meant for it to be...thanks for reading!

end variance!
simulated repops!

tldr;
0 variance and repops are classic.
large spawn windows with no repops perpetuates the shit show.

[rayeatts]

Originally Posted by drktmplr12 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you bring up the crux of variance. This would really not be a problem if server repops synchronized the spawns periodically and variance was lowered to 2-3 hour window.

Lets remember that repops and 0 variance is classic. variance was implemented because there wasn't enough raid targets to keep people busy. So when one was about to spawn-EVERYONE showed up.

I would argue that with velious, there are enough targets to keep everyone busy enough so that variance can be reasonably lowered or eliminated all together.

for argument's sake:

lets assume guild A is keyed for ST and another guild B is getting keys, but cannot compete in ST.

without repops and with variance as high as it is:

the spawn times for necklace dropping mobs (and all others for that matter) tend to diverge and guild A can effectively take every single one they want since they are the largest with most play time and are the most available for tracking. guild A takes 90% of ST key holders and laughs on their way to ST. This is okay and normal since they are putting more effort into the game. The problem is that variance really tips the scales in their favor and perpetuates the state of end game.

With lower variance and simulated repops:

guild A will race to dragons that drop necklaces and ignore ST for as long as they want, since no one else can enter. but they can't possibly get them ALL since others will be competing. With as many necklace dropping targets as there are, no reason why guild B can't get ST keyed to compete within a period of 3-4 months. there would also be (1) higher degree of predictability (far from certain though) to spawn times which helps people plan their game time (2) the tendency for spawn timers to diverge is dampened significantly (3) repops would force more keys into guild B hands, but only if guild B can mobilize and kill things before guild A.

Once B is keyed, guild A needs to race to ST on a repop. Both guilds A and B are now competing for ST and leaving necklace targets alone for guilds C, D, E and F.

this ended up being alot longer than i meant for it to be...thanks for reading!

end variance!
simulated repops!

tldr;
0 variance and repops are classic.
large spawn windows with no repops perpetuates the shit show.

This man clearly knows what he is talking about. Others should consider what he's saying.

[maestrom]

I used to think that even with Velious, there would need to be some kind of rule changes to allow smaller guilds a shot at raid targets.

I'm not 100% convinced that a first in force rule isn't the best option, but I think a no-variance + sim-repops schedule would work almost as well.

I understand why variance was put in, but repops would do away with 10 guilds piling on top of each other and training all over each other to get to the only target in window.

[Pyrocat]

no or less variance = way more of a shitshow on contested raid targets, way more training, way more drama. We've been there. We do not want to go back. I'm not saying this as someone in the top raiding guild, I'm saying this as someone who is an active member of this community who doesn't like drama. If you think the level of toxic bullshit that goes on in the raiding scene is bad now... it was 10 times worse before variance.

I'm all in favor of more simulated repops though (or even just normal ones when they bring the server down... those don't happen anymore). More simulated repops = more mobs for everyone = more smaller guilds able to get targets because larger guilds are busy competing in ToV.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Pyrocat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no or less variance = way more of a shitshow on contested raid targets, way more training, way more drama. We've been there. We do not want to go back. I'm not saying this as someone in the top raiding guild, I'm saying this as someone who is an active member of this community who doesn't like drama. If you think the level of toxic bullshit that goes on in the raiding scene is bad now... it was 10 times worse before variance.

I'm all in favor of more simulated repops though (or even just normal ones when they bring the server down... those don't happen anymore). More simulated repops = more mobs for everyone = more smaller guilds able to get targets because larger guilds are busy competing in ToV.

And remind me.

How many raid targets were there when there was no variance?

More targets means more spread out and less stepping on each other's toes.

Overlapping spawns pushes the losing guild to settle for a secondary target.

[maestrom]

How many guilds are going to go after Vulak when 1-2 Warders, Tormax, Zland, Phara, Statue, and Inny are due to pop in the same hour?

Probably 1. Maybe 2.

Is Vulak going to be a top priority target forever and ever? Of course! But how many guilds are going to take a 50% chance of winning the race to Vulak when they could just go to ST, or Kael, or DN, or VP, or Hate and have a 100% shot at any of those mobs.

If you remove variance and sim-repop even once a month, i would be surprised if you ever get to a situation where a majority of targets spread out by more than a few hours. Even for Rampage, it would be tough to contest more than 5-6 targets spread out across 3 expansions in a couple of hours.

[Morlaeth]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How many guilds are going to go after Vulak when 1-2 Warders, Tormax, Zland, Phara, Statue, and Inny are due to pop in the same hour?

Probably 1. Maybe 2.

Is Vulak going to be a top priority target forever and ever? Of course! But how many guilds are going to take a 50% chance of winning the race to Vulak when they could just go to ST, or Kael, or DN, or VP, or Hate and have a 100% shot at any of those mobs.

If you remove variance and sim-repop even once a month, i would be surprised if you ever get to a situation where a majority of targets spread out by more than a few hours. Even for Rampage, it would be tough to contest more than 5-6 targets spread out across 3 expansions in a couple of hours.

ST shouldn't even in the 'racing for mobs' equation.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by Morlaeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ST shouldn't even in the 'racing for mobs' equation.

Why not?

Because only a guild are two are keyed right now? ST keys aren't like VP and aren't real bottlenecks. In 6 months half of the 60s on the server will have an ST key. ST should absolutely be included.