Paladin: Erudite or High Elf

[Tuljin]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can just see Xoquil sitting there, thinking "oh no, I might be mistaken for a min-maxer, maybe if I make sure not to get an epic . . ."

heheheh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rofl That's pretty much it dog really tho Bixie Blade and Sky Belt just OP (Mark of Karn makes it hilarious haha)

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Extra mana will hardly ever matter.

As a Paladin you will rarely sit to full mana. You will probably be pulling most of the time and even if you did get a chance to sit while someone else pulls you have to get up to tank anyways. You also will be casting stuns and roots which chip away at your mana constantly. If you're not getting standing mana regen from C2 you definitely have to be very frugal with your mana and you won't have a ton of it to use for heals.

To sacrifice other important stats mainly HP AC and also Dex for Mana Pool is a poor choice. To have a substantial enough increase in mana pool to have one extra Superior Heal you need 250 mana. For two superior heals you'd need an 500 extra mana. There's no way you can achieve this extra mana without serious sacrifices elsewhere. Even still, this extra mana pool is only of benefit -when your mana bar is full which it will never be- The extra 12 base wisdom that a High Elf has over other races is barely half a Superior Heal at level 60. Also, this requires a Paladin actually getting to level 57 to even get the spell in the first place, something that most people who make the Paladin race selection threads (also most people who roll Paladin in general) will not achieve.

Also consider - this is not Complete Heal we're talking about - we're talking about sacrificing everything else for 500 extra mana (impossible to hit) for 1160 points of healing over 9 seconds and two casts. This is hardly useful on a "raid" and not worth losing a lifetime of higher stats and more Dex for procs over the life of the toon.

Wisdom provides poor gains to mana pool while leveling. You benefit far for from Stat increases. When you hit 45 you will start using your Heal Hat all the time to top off your HP and you will be saving your mana heals for mid-combat heals, which saves a ton of mana and reduces the need for a large pool even more. In your 50s the Heal Hat slows down but its still extremely useful (mana free HP who cares how slow it is)

In low to mid 50s Paladin is a very poor healer with only Greater Healing until level 57. In any "oddball" group (i.e. any group without a Cleric) you will have Daring for an HP/AC buff from the Heal Hat and you'll be using it a ton. Max mana pool is not the limiting factor for your effectiveness with spells, mana regeneration is the limiting factor.

The "raid" guilds have a pathetically low number of Paladins. Nobody is busting down the door to be a "raid" Paladin. I don't think any "raid" Paladin is saying to himself "gee, I really need more Wisdom, I should sacrifice some HP and AC so I can get it" and "I should also sacrifice Dex so my Epic procs a bit less"

Its similar for INT casters even - Max mana pool only matters when you are full mana, which is rarely the case if you're actually playing. Enchanters need a ton of HP for charm breaks and they can Theft of Thought for mana. Mages don't need a deep mana pool and should roll 25 Stamina and get good HP and Save gear. Necro doesn't need a deep mana pool because they lich and they need a deep HP pool as well. Wizard is never full mana and needs HP and Saves as well, and on "raids" you strictly prioritize Save or HP gear depending on the mob which inevitably decreases your mana pool. There are many times on Wiz I've lived with 50-150 HP left, and if it wasn't for HP gearing that simply wouldn't have been the case. On Red its all about Saves and HP, "bluebies" still don't quite get it.

The extra base Wis on the High Elf is hardly a game-changer. High Elf Paladin benefits far more from the extra Charisma than the extra Wisdom.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by williestargell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I completely and totally disagree with this statement. Mana pool is very important to a paladin.

1) Soloing at low-mid level. You are going to be soloing primarily undead, and a good portion of the damage you deal them is from nukes. You are going to be self-healing. Standing toe-to-toe with undead is going to eat mana and if you want to clear a 3-4 mob camp on one mana pool you need it to be large (then sit and med while you wait for the 7 minute respawn. The main reason people say that paladins can't solo is because their paladins have no mana pool.

Nope. The reason paladins solo poorly is that they do poor damage and have to tank every mob themselves. You don't have 7 minutes to med, because you can't kill the mobs instantaneously. Your damage output from nukes sucks donkey balls, and they are slow-assed casts so they get interrupted often (we're talking low-/mid-level you say) and trash your real damage output (i.e. melee.)

Also, the ONLY reason for a paladin to prefer undead as targets is while Unrest is level appropriate, and it has nothing to do with casting nukes. IVU lets you move around freely in the house and with some care Lulling you can get a steady diet of single pulls. Since 20-30 is also the level range where Ghoulbane is both fun and effective it all works out nicely (or it used to work out nicely, last time i looked in on it Unrest was pretty well wrecked as a legit 20-something dungeon by the PLers.).

2) Grouping - even at mid-level group members ask for buffs. If your healer is a shaman or druid especially. Paladins are usually tanking and can't sit down to regen so they need a big pool to cast those occasional buffs and keep casting for agro. They are also going to spot heal.

LOL NOPE. Where is this mana for buffs and heals coming from? You regen 1 mana per tick while standing, that's 10 mana per minute. Mana regen is the issue, not mana pool.

3) Raiding - In kunark at high level paladins are just as good a healer as a druid (better even with LoH). They should be casting heals on raids. They will probably be asked for symbol by people that clerics don't want to waste mana on. In velious they have their own unique buff that stacks and everyone will want.

Most common druid specialization sure seems to be alteration, how does a paladin compete with that mana efficiency? Druids get mana regen self-buffs that stack with the clarity line, how does a paladin compete with that? Lay Hands is a 72 minute cooldown, it's a gimmick with occasional glory that does not come close to countering the druid's advantages as a healer. It doesn't take a deep mana pool to spot heal the occasional non-Iksar necro and the two or three shamans doing all the work of buffing the raid, it takes mana regen.

The high elf wisdom so far outstrips the other paladin races that they are the min/max choice imo. Moreso even in velious.

As Tuljin points out, it's not even a single cast of superior heal, it has almost zero value. The high elf cha edge is helpful for lulling, which a paladin should be doing somewhat often while levelling. But the wisdom does nothing but make it a little easier to skill up any tradeskills you feel are helpful.

[Danth]

Folks who think Paladins need a large mana pool as part of their normal function have likely never played Paladins very much. There are a few cases where a large mana pool makes a real difference, but they're the exception, not the norm. If you want more mana for some reason, buy some wisdom gear that you can swap on. Most of the class's bread-and-butter spells--Flash of Light, stuns, etc--have a low mana cost. Even the heals are individually sort of low mana by the time the Paladin gets them. As others have said, mana regen is the main limitation.

If you're a raiding Paladin and you're regularly called on to heal so much that you feel like you need to wear high-wisdom armor, then it can help--but you've already lost. Congratulations: Your guild thinks you're worthless. Hope you enjoy your life as an unimportant tertiary healer for the other fluff folks your guild doesn't care about. If you stick it out, maybe you can even look forward to being your guild's one high-level Paladin for casting Brell's in Velious! Then you can loot uncontested class rots so you can cast Brell's even better! Joy of joys! Or go join a guild that'll actually utilize the class as a tank/offtank, for which you don't need a huge mana pool. Optionally just make a new character like most Paladins do.

If you have a short attention span, here's the short version: Mana is something you gain with gear if you want it, typically for very specific situations, and not something you worry about at creation.

Danth

[Pint]

Damn I love paladins but you guys went to town on those long ass responses lol. I will agree that the 12 mana diff between dwarf and high elf is negligible but I would say that with velious coming up as a paladin having a large mana pool and solid resists will be your best bet. I had good success keeping my dps grps alive during beta.

Also high elves are fucking lame regardless of which class you're playing, erudites are baller and I'm not just saying that bc they're black.

[captnamazing]

inclined to agree with Pint here