Consider Project 2002

[Grimjaw]

i read stuff like that and dont even crack a grin. and im drunk

[apio]

Secrets, I am pretty sure Hogg was talking about this quote, and not Torven's code in general.

I also wrote some code to allow NPCs to see through walls in flagged zones to more accurately emulate the planes and other outdoor zones. (or more accurately, completed what cavedude started) P2002 pulled the code without knowing what it did, which caused mistmoore NPCs to ignore walls because they copied our database with all outdoor zones flaged no-LOS. Then they blamed and ridiculed me for 'setting assist radii too high' or some nonsense, not knowing what actually happened. (the assist radii for NPCs was in fact 0, meaning the same as aggro radius) One wonders if their hateplane even has LOS disabled at all.

If you read this thread carefully instead of just jumping to the end to troll, you would see we credit HIM and YOU both multiple times throughout this thread, on the other thread about P2002 and on our forums.

I too am kind of disappointed by the behavior in this thread, seeing as we have been nothing but non confrontational since we started our own server (which was encouraged by the TAK staff, for many reasons) You will be hard pressed to find many (unprovoked) messages like this from our staff:

It's simple. They have lower standards for quality than p99 does.

You want it 'now, now, now' and want to be 'the first' at something.

Oh, and threatening our project. "Be careful throwing stones at glass houses." I'm so scared. What are you going to do, DDoS us into oblivion like children? Grow up.

So yes. They could steal passwords. So dont use same password there.

On p2002, all the gms are in the top guild, and its only guild raiding far as i understand.

P2002 is about people taking EverQuest so seriously that they make their own server because they cannot handle guild politics and cry about it. Arm and Hammered EQ is no different than EQTitan

The bottom line is, P2002 is closed source at this moment. That means any speculation you might hear about our server is just that, speculation. None of the TAK staff has ever played on our box (except for Secrets, who came online in one of the first days warping around and openly using hacks until he got banned, something I guess he feels he is entitled to, working on the netcode? I don't know) so they quite frankly have no idea what they are talking about when they are criticizing our progress and content quality

[Torven]

Originally Posted by apio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets, I am pretty sure Hogg was talking about this quote, and not Torven's code in general.
...
I too am kind of disappointed by the behavior in this thread, seeing as we have been nothing but non confrontational since we started our own server

Well since you guys still don't seem to know what I'm talking about, I'll quote two posts from your forums:

Originally Posted by mario

Walls in mistmoore are not acting as line of sight barriers to assist additional nearby mobs. I'm not sure if you know this but just letting you chaps know that when within the castle, the walls do not prevent aggro from bouncing

Originally Posted by Boragar

This is fixed, so the castle should be playeable after reboot. We had what we have dubbed "torven-mode" going on in there. Where mob assist radii were set to beyond obnoxious levels to recreate some kind of hard mode that never existed.

I would also classify this as something less than cordial.

Your first p2002 thread was also full of 'TAKP devs are all in Destiny and there is GM favoritism' posts, along with comments like 'if you want loot handed to you on a silver platter, play on TAKP' or 'unlike other servers...'

Of course now that you have launched a server using our work, you want to act more respectful. Don't think we have forgotten posts like these.

[Secrets]

You will be hard pressed to find many (unprovoked) messages like this from our staff:

Yes - instead you'll get blatant lies about content and what you've actually done. Hint: you've done a few quest scripts and modified a few NPC stats to make your game what you think is right. I'm okay with that, but don't call the base work your own, that's just insensitive as fuck to my team.

The bottom line is, P2002 is closed source at this moment. That means any speculation you might hear about our server is just that, speculation. None of the TAK staff has ever played on our box (except for Secrets, who came online in one of the first days warping around and openly using hacks until he got banned, something I guess he feels he is entitled to, working on the netcode? I don't know) so they quite frankly have no idea what they are talking about when they are criticizing our progress and content quality

It is not speculation. You took advantage of an open source project and threw their development team under the bus that made your server possible by claiming their work as your own. Just because you are 'closed source' doesn't mean it gives you an excuse to claim everything you have done as yours. Much like I can't claim that TAK wouldn't be possible without a lot of the work Harakiri and Yeahlight did on EQClassic/Trilogy as most of the structures were used as a starting point for the Mac client before I dumped the protocol from the client itself.

When you start saying that you can do a better job than us, it becomes something personal. So here's something personal back:

Shut the fuck up. No one cares. This isn't a competition and you are hurting the remnants of the EQMac community by splintering into p2002. Your server is what I was trying to avoid when I started this project; 'holier than thou' attitudes and competition instead of sharing code and content with each other. You're only hurting the players by doing this.

You cannot argue against this; you are refusing to give back to the open source project because you want to be 'the best' and this is going to bite the players in the ass in the end if they truly do like your server more than ours - you are removing the option for people to play where they please by closed sourcing your project, which was my only request with the project, is that you keep it open sourced, as you have quoted me saying, so people can choose where to play. What happens if your GM team is corrupt and someone wants to make their own P2002? Shit ain't happening because of you.

If someone says, "You can have this for free and I expect nothing but your contributions in return" and you say "I am not giving you anything back, thanks for the free stuff", does that put you in the wrong? Yes.

You won't see P2002 GMs saying what I say because they don't have the balls to say it on a public forum; they'd rather talk about people behind their back and laugh privately, 'oh, look, Secrets posted another rant about our server, haha, how funny is that? look how mad Secrets is getting!' - You are cowards and attention seekers, and I find that despicable.

Requesting move to R&F.

[BossThunderace]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

look how mad Secrets is getting!

Classic

[jetviper21]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is not speculation. You took advantage of an open source project and threw their development team under the bus that made your server possible by claiming their work as your own. Just because you are 'closed source' doesn't mean it gives you an excuse to claim everything you have done as yours.

You can not make this statement. For two reasons.

1. It was the tak team that told p2002 to go make a server if they did not like tak. So they did.

2. Every open source project is out there in the wild is to be taken advantage of... that is kind of the entire point of open source. Even p99 took advantage of some older EQEMU code when they got started. I bet their database wasn't even from scratch. So the logic in this argument is flawed if you didn't want people to take what you started and use it for enjoyment then why publish it as open source in the first place.

I think the key thing everyone forget is that the majority of p2002 developers were beta testers from tak WE HELPED BUILD IT. You you simply can not make the claim we took advantage of tak when in fact we were apart of tak. That would be like taking advantage of yourself which can be quite pleasurable.

I will dump both of the databases so you can see the content diff and you can see how much of tak we actually kept if you are that concerned about it. But to be honest you and torven are the only ones that seem to respond with hostility to p2002 threads. Its like you play a game to bait wharhogg out to look like an idiot (which he is quite good at).

All in all P2002 was born because some of the developers on the tak project have personality conflicts with the P2002 staff and in order to make the play ground fun again we decided to part ways. We all would still probably working on tak if those rough edges hadn't of collided.

[Secrets]

1. It was the tak team that told p2002 to go make a server if they did not like tak. So they did.

You can make a server but you are breaching the one simple request that we made: keep it open sourced so if someone hates your server they can make a clone of your server.

So the logic in this argument is flawed if you didn't want people to take what you started and use it for enjoyment then why publish it as open source in the first place.

So it can be preserved. I don't care who runs it, never have, but obviously I would be taken back a bit if someone were to run off with the project and make it closed source while the open source project(s) could benefit in some way. If this is farfetched to you as a software developer, then maybe you should stop looking at this like it's a for-profit venture and more like FOSS.

It's not a competition, as I have stated before. People are entitled to take Linux and download and install it, but the mentality behind the project is you can't just be like Nvidia and close-source your drivers because 'you don't want trade secrets out'.

That's not how it works, and why Linus Torvalds has said fuck you to Nvidia on multiple occasions.

But to be honest you and torven are the only ones that seem to respond with hostility to p2002 threads.

I'm pretty sure all hostility is because we were provoked into responding by members of your server. I am willing to take you serious if it isn't a competition and a competition mentality isn't promoted between us. I am also willing to put this topic aside for the greater part of what we're both working for: preserving EQMac.

Originally Posted by jetviper21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We all would still probably working on tak

You can't make the claim, as a team, that you are contributing, which other developers have claimed, while other developers claim blatantly that you aren't contributing such as the above.

I have seen some path files contributed lately (and I thank you guys for that, they are great) and i've also seen comments saying 'we're withholding data you can have'. TAK is not withholding data and will never withhold data.

So drop that mentality and let's get some 2002-era EverQuest made. I am sick of reading such vile hatred for both of our projects.

I am open to working with you guys and implementing your contributions. Always have been. I don't think anyone would reject contributions because of who a person is, or what they've done. Just need to see it happen.

[jetviper21]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can make a server but you are breaching the one simple request that we made: keep it open sourced so if someone hates your server they can make a clone of your server.

Sure they can! They can do compile the same source tak uses just like we do. Given we have reverted a few things. but we have not added any new features.

And a note on contributing: The merge delta for back merging all our database and quest work would be enormous our database ids will not align correctly with tak's. you can't merge a database like you can with source code. If you have a sane suggestion for this then we can open a contribution channel but, sadly I don't think that is possible given that we have redone huge sections of the database. If its content based then we have our allaclone open now.

[Baler]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
for the OP who didn't see it coming.

Lock this thread and let it rot!

[Secrets]

Just realized how much guilt I have for posting the above... disregard what I posted, arguing is pointless I suppose. I'm posting out of anger and I really shouldn't be posting right now. Running on little to no sleep and getting upset over something so trivial is pointless.