Knights: Decent or Garbage?

[Wabic]

So in that case, if the knight was another bard instead... see what I'm saying?

I love knights, just being picky about your example.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Wabic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So in that case, if the knight was another bard instead... see what I'm saying?

If the knight was another bard instead you'd want them in a group singing songs. If you had groups full with bards, a knight can perform the same role as the bard except the knight can take more hits and survive more random mob aggros. Paladins can heal themselves faster than a bard can regen.

Knights can also off tank adds, Paladins can serve as backup healers, SKs as pullers. Both serve well as ramp tanks. Solid speed bumps in between tank switches if you don't have weapon shield or tons of warriors.

Like a bard, they're a utility class that can morph to fit whatever raid makeup/situation you are faced with. Which is what makes them invaluable.

In the vaccuum of MathQuest, I'm sure some power gamers have a tough time justifying them when they're calculating DI/DBs and figuring out the exact /pause on their clerics CH chain and how many epic'd 60 Rogues you need to kill the mob in 2 minutes. But actual EQ that we play calls for these utility classes to be used on raids all the time. If you got a single pull of a non rampaging mob to a corner, yea, they're rather useless. So is basically everyone but the MT, Clerics and pure DPS though.

[Wabic]

That makes sense; Knights are tougher than bards. Thanks for the clarification.

[myriverse]

This thread is racist.

[Daldaen]

Warriors snap aggro blows. They're awful for groups that are plowing through content. And extremely awful with groups taking on multiple mobs at once.

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much. The DPS differential between Warrior/Knight isn't huge enough to warrant that risk.

Rampage obviously isn't about taking aggro, it's about staying alive. Not having to devote a warrior to this role is nice so you have more depth in your MT list. In general on raid mobs, a Knights role is to always be 2nd in aggro/top of rampage list. IE when mob is incoming all Knights throw a spell at the mob so the rampage list is 1-5 Knights. Likewise for the main aggro list they should know how many aggro spells they can cast to be underneath a full mallet spam and continually cast aggro spells throughout the fight so that if a tank goes down, the mob switches to a knight and has a few rounds on him before another warrior takes over and the CH Chain stabilizes on that warrior, instead of allowing the mob to rip through clerics or DPS.

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now. Probably not for NToV (though... Who knows people may just glitch out pathing in some spots.) But You can bet your ass no one is going to clear to Tormax or clear to Dain or clear to Zlandicar. There are going to be trains or CotH races everywhere. Bladestopper SoW'd person is nice but each SK and Paladin bring the most survivability (behind warriors) and several utility tricks (DA/FD + Heals and Roots) that will make them solid. In many places you will have to take a hit or two when gathering a train, and these are the classes best suited for this.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much.

Rogues never die in vaguely competent XP groups, and healing will never pull aggro off a warrior.

Originally Posted by Daldaen

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now.

That's probably because you are too confident in your assumptions. What if Kael is depopulated by XP groups? What if the GMs start dropping the banhammer when those XP groups get trained?

Originally Posted by Kaev

But it's more about EQ group content not really requiring 6 good players.

What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity.

Mixed with DPS that starts nuking as soon as your arrow lands when you pull.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Players on p99 pretty much refuse to see knights in any role besides tank. Most knights here never learn to pull well, it's hard to learn something you never practice. A paladin can do pretty well in a puller+CC role, but if you've ever got paladin & warrior together the only group deployment that is not immediately rejected is "paladin tank, warrior go zerker and dps". I mean, do these people not understand that the damned paladin can root the mob(s) to make warrior agro trivial and go start the next pull?

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

It's funny sometimes grouping my warrior with careful casters, getting a proc on engage and then seeing root land always makes me want to giggle. But hell, if the shaman wants to root every mob before slowing I'm quite willing to pull out a 2hander and up the damage output. The overwhelming majority of warriors are never going to "get the gear" you're thinking of (mine's an alt, for instance), it's a cooperative game and a warrior's effectiveness as a tank is influenced hugely by the cooperation of their group. Necros & wizards that nuke on engage, rogues that can't even spell "evade" let alone use the ability, rangers & monks & rogues that equip weapons with agro procs or nuke procs, monks that can't be bothered to shed agro with FD... It does seem like few players here learn much of anything about agro management until/unless they get insta-gibbed a few times by Spiroc Lords.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity.

That's no myth; it's reality for many players. That "noob" Warrior with a Yak and a Silken Whip is a whole lot nearer to the norm for most folks than some VP-geared veteran who rarely groups outside his guild or group of friends. Epic Warriors aren't exactly crowding the LFG list in Karnor or Mistmoore. EQ's what you make it, and it so happens that the hybrid tanks do well in the portions of the game where Warriors struggle, and vice-versa. Know what you want to do and pick your class accordingly.

Danth

[Cecily]

Cobalt / ogre probably not too different. Kunark gear is terrible. The big deal in exp groups is weapons for warriors. Something with high agro even without the procs is what you need. Unfortunately, you aren't exping once you get something like that. No AAs kills this server.