the server, loot and the way things are

[Dach]

Originally Posted by Alexzia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My live server, Prexus, also had a rotation system. It was used from Classic through the start of Velious (only Dain was rotated). Although clearly rotation systems have benefits, my first-hand experience playing on a server with a rotation leads me to believe the drawbacks outweigh the advantages. Many of these drawbacks have not be recognized so far in this thread. Rotation systems lead to slower progression, to waste, and although have the veneer of altruism, actually prevent guilds anywhere but the bleeding edge of the curve from ever catching up.

On Prexus, dozens of guilds rotated the planes. There were so many "planes capable" guilds that many of us were lucky to see a planar run more that a couple times a month, and that was including double-dipping the calendar with friendly guilds (a common practice). Although I will admit that the RNG hated my guts, by I finally got my ranger his TV BP during Velious. Yes, Velious. That was from raiding the planes at every opportunity the calendar would allow me during the Kunark period.

Waste was terrible as well. I put "planes capable" in quotations earlier as, although many of these guilds were capable of clearing a plane, it often took them over five hours. (This is after the level cap was raised to 60 as well!) In other words, if you were unlucky enough to follow a slow clear guild, you were in there for five or six hours even if your normal clear was an hour or two. The result was that the powers that be chose to divide a planar day into two twelve hour blocks instead of three eight hour blocks. Not only to prevent the wait, but to give people the experience of a full break. But in the end, a full spawn was wasted every day, ironically in the name of giving people more opportunity.

It gets even worse when key mobs are involved. This is how it generally goes, by the time the second tier raiding crews are ready to step up to, say Trak, the first tier crews are already keyed. More people get let in on the rotation. During that period of Kunark, I was in an alliance with a guild that was the 4th to kill Trak on the server. After consulting a calculator, we found it would have taken us roughly four to six months to key our core crew for VP. Realistically, it would have been longer, as a few months down the line, the rotation got even longer. Towards the end of the lifespan of the calendar, a guild joining the Trak rotation would require of a year and a half of waiting in line to key up a reasonable raiding force. Although perhaps this is fair, this sort of time frame is not reasonable.

In the meantime, the top tier guilds can farm VP virtually uncontested, while the teir below trying to step up is prevented from progressing by the system. This creates a cycle in which the gap between the top and the mid gets larger. The more casual raiders are just happy seeing Trak and praise the fairness of the top guilds, where as in reality, the top guilds are merely guaranteeing that the mid tier can never catch up in gear.

Not only that, but the top guild(s) can leisurely kill old, rotated content that they really only farm for guild bank gear only after they kill their priority targets. This benefits the top tier more than the middle tier. It helps the top tier's guild bank at the expense of the middle tier's progression.

So yes, although rotation systems help the most casual of the player base see some content every now and then, they also serve as an effective tool for keeping the "hardcasual" crew from ever advancing. Rotation also result in a larger stratification between the raiding guilds. In simple words, the gap between the haves and have nots becomes even wider. As a direct result guild poaching and feeder guilds become a much larger problem/reality.

Having had the misfortune of raiding under such as system of constraints in the past, I was happy then when the calendar was abolished on my live server, and I am happy now that P1999 does not have one.

These issues are easily addressed and in fact were on Karana.

Guilds taking that long to clear planes ruin it for the next group and would ally with other guilds of the same caliber.

[Mega]

Would like to see instancing here in parallel with regular zones.
Then the clusterfuckers get to have their fun and the rest can too.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Mega [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would like to see instancing here in parallel with regular zones.
Then the clusterfuckers get to have their fun and the rest can too.

Thankfully it's EQ = no instances [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Skope]

Gwence complaining? Worthless post? WHAAAAAA?!?!

I was on Prexus as well, and rotations can be a major pita, especially if you take into account the mere number of guilds that would want a fair share -- which is exactly the scenario here. Come kunark it will ease up and if you want a target you can certainly get it if you plan ahead. Also, come kunark you won't see these 40-60 raid forces because the high end stuff requires keys, tiered gear and still has only 32khp. Guilds who amass numbers, always open to recruit and zerg will ultimately have another implosion unless they decide to trim the added weight. Nobody in their right mind will want to sit on the bench for months until they decide to open up keying to the people not considered the "core." Keying to VP/trak/epic business was always a big issue with the bigger guilds and would almost always cause massive internal issues. Far easier to engage trak with the first 30 then it is to wait for the other 20-30 still making their way.

I have grown to dislike the variance, though. Twice have we seen exploits that were used to find the spawn timers and sit your guild there beforehand (once it was rumored and the other time members from guild(s) were banned yet... yea, well i'm not gonna go there but i suppose you can fill in the rest). I've been tracking in zones where I've seen a necro FD at fear portal (full pop) waiting for draco to spawn. How would they know? I've seen pallies/warriors/wizards sitting in zones where mobs were in timer apparently afk and were the only members of their guild in the zone. The upper end guilds know exactly how/what's being done and who is doing it. We also know that if someone is believed to be using that it also provides motivation for others to use it, despite being against the rules. If they can do it and get away with it why can't I? It's not healthy, and if there will be no p99-downloaded program to run alongside our version of EQ there's also no certain way to find it.

Dump the variance and I assure you people will start to play nice or get the ban hammer. If they don't then they'll learn quickly that they dislike having to sit out week-long bans because of failure to cooperate.

[Curmudgen]

I started on The Rathe just after Velious opened. The calendar had been in place since Kunark. So whatever argument you make about scheduling, you can't say it "isn't classic" period. On several servers it was.

Do you want to approach the game as a juvenile non-mature mindset, or as an ordered and thoughtful approach. Most of these comments I read I can envision coming from young folks. Cooperation is not communist, or socialist, it is effective and actually the adult American way.

I love the server here ( I can hear allready the love it or leave it posts) but personally think the calendar is a wonderful idea as it ws on the rathe.

[Dach]

The guilds that cannot take down a god or dragon would have to ally with other guilds in order to do so which dramatically reduces the numbers in a rotation making plenty of raid opportunities for all.

Someone needs to crunch the numbers of:

How many targets there are

How often they spawn

How many alliances would be in the rotation

How many raid opportunities per week that would leave each alliance or uber guild.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Dach [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The guilds that cannot take down a god or dragon would have to ally with other guilds in order to do so which dramatically reduces the numbers in a rotation making plenty of raid opportunities for all.

Someone needs to crunch the numbers of:

How many targets there are

How often they spawn

How many alliances would be in the rotation

How many raid opportunities per week that would leave each alliance or uber guild.

It doesnt take much to down a god or dragon. we've taken draco with 11? need ~15 to break the plane.

Inny can be killed with ~20. We've done it with 22 and it was pretty easy.

CT may require a bit more, but if there's 0 competition then he's no harder than inny (in fact probably easier).

Naggy and vox both are no harder than the gods.

Maestro can probably be duo'd.

The gods/dragons spawn every 7 +/- 48, maestro/draco spawn every 3 days +/- 24.

Any guild that can muster up 25 people can kill any god/dragon/mini with the proper strategy.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any guild that can muster up 25 people can kill any god/dragon/mini with the proper number of malachites.

FIFY.

tee hee! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] JK!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Taluvill]

What I think a lot of you Pro-Rotation people seem to think is that a lot of people want to share their pie with everyone.

I would imagine, if there was a rotation with IB/Div/DA, there would be some good favor to it. This solution also puts every guild under them at a reduced class and makes them feeder guilds for the "Big 3" and ruins the fun for anyone not in those guilds/potential new guilds.

If you force the big three to share with say, 8 guilds, which I can EASILY see happening with a widespread rotation, why would any of these 3 agree to it? they can all get raid mobs when they feel like it and get more than 1 every two weeks. They could have 3-5 every week, potentially. They won't agree to it, and it's as others have said, big guilds will be cockblocking, for lack of a better term, old type content to gear up newer members, pad their guild bank, and bring new recruits up to gear(ish) the moment they join and earn their favor.

A rotation, as much as you want it, will not work on the sole fact that there are too many people who have done this, and too many people that would jump at the chance to monopolize the server and raid frequently.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Taluvill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A rotation, as much as you want it, will not work on the sole fact that there are too many people who have done this, and too many people that would jump at the chance to monopolize the server and raid frequently.

I think that's probably the main reason why rotation just wouldn't work. Generally rotations are set in place early during an expansion/creation when there are only but a couple guilds who can down said targets. A few months down the line you start to get other guilds trying to flex their muscles and make a name for themselves. Right now we have many guilds who can down gods/dragons and perhaps too many for a rotation unless it is very limited towards the "bottom" guilds. I do agree that perhaps it's not the right time to enact a rotation, but the I honestly can't think of a single reason why we still have variance. variance was put in place to stop people from poopsocking (and it still didn't work) and for some reason it's still here. Dump the variance and if guild A wants to tangle with the big boys then get in there and buff up =P