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#1
10-28-2014, 10:13 AM
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Little history lesson about where we came from in terms of these raid changes and where we are now ( not that this is new for anyone but a little refresher )
Raid Changes happen....some rules are purposely vague ( in terms of zone activity when raid targets are in window). We are warned not to be around the spawns with our raid force, and tracking can only be performed by maximum of 2 people ( for tagging purposes ). BDA gets ding'd with a suspension for being too close to Trakanon, suddenly most Class R guilds are on high alert when targets are in window. I cant speak for everyone else's guild but Taken ( among many others ) basically forbade any members from even being IN these hot zones when a raid target is in window. Socking at the zone in was NEVER CONSIDERED. Something happens tho, TMO slowly but surely, begins to return the socking. For several FFA VS they have a handful of people scattered about the zone. A few recruits exping, some people at the zone in, no one seems to have issue. They begin to 'deem it acceptable' to be at the zone in waiting just not anywhere else but the zone in. With that, poopsocking returns. Several members stated ( which I am paraphrasing ) 'its simply smart and logical to hang around an area where you know something will happen. The variance was cut to 16 hrs with no extension, its the smart thing to do is wait it out. Heres the quote: Quote:
Then began the socking....when the raid rules changed everyone was afraid as shit to be in these zones when BDA got suspended, however slowly but surely the socks returned. I dont think anything will ever 'stop' poopsocking because EQ IS poopsocking. Any item camp you sit at is a poopsock. Any exp grind session is a poopsock. With the raid target poopsocks you are usually just getting to know your guildies, getting drunk and hangin out. Not sure what really can be done to curtail sitting there as it has been well proven that even ridiculous amounts of variance will cause people to still sit there ( see VS pit). I think at this point the reason the players would like to see it reduced is simply that the 16 hours is not 'proving' anything. This is why FFA on sim repops would be such an elegant solution. The socking stops. | |||
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#2
10-28-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
However some guilds slowly began to get closer. Clarification was asked for as to what was acceptable. Clarification was not given. After watching these guilds win several times pretty much uncontested without any consequence we pretty much came to the conclusion that what they are doing is okay as far as staff is concerned, so we escalate and do the same thing so we actually stand a chance. Fast forward to what we have now. You want us all to agree on something together and state staff will not make any changes on their own, but we havnt been able to agree on anything since the beginning when we had a final negotiation for the new raid rules and then rogean had to just walk in and tell us how it was going to be. We couldn't agree on anything then, and I don't think we have agreed on anything since either. Class R has a system and is able to come to compromise among each other but as far as Class R and Class C reaching an agreement together, it hasn't happened. We couldn't even work together to not kill overseers. And the two classes are completely different playstyles so I do not see why people expect that it should happen or will happen at all. I appreciate the work the staff does and im not trying to knock you guys, but purposely leaving some things vague and not coming down hard on people who began to move closer and closer in the early days led to what we have now. | |||
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Last edited by -Catherin-; 10-28-2014 at 11:24 AM..
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#3
10-28-2014, 01:56 PM
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Divinity agrees with the statement that, "This is why FFA on sim repops would be such an elegant solution. The socking stops."
However, we don't think that will happen, because: a) The current FFA rule set favors C class guilds more than R class guilds, and the above proposal would favor R class guilds more than C class guilds, and b) It takes some coding effort, and the real overlords of this server are busy (rightfully so) with Velious. There are however a lot of things we could do which would help the raiding scene, and I think the GMs need to take partial credit for the current mess. Here are some things which have had a deleterious effect on the raiding scene: 1. Vaguely worded rules. Adjectives like 'near' aren't nearly good enough. 2. Poorly worded rules: if you mean non-kos mages cannot be on spawn points then say that, but "not on the spawn point" means no one (kos or not). 3. Lack of a clear, concise, short, server rules set. 4. Ad hoc changes to existing rules with no regard for why they were there in the first place, and little to no consultation with the server. For example, poopsocking began the day the 15 man rule was struck down. Prior to that small guilds like Full Circle could utilize the 15 man rule to wrest raid mobs away from the larger guilds without larger guilds bringing overwhelming forces to out poopsock. 5. No central sticky with an updated rule set. As Ambrotos noted, asking folks to listen in on the latest twitch or paging through countless posts to find precedents is not productive. 6. Posting in RnF, and using epithets / slurs. Conflict arises from a lack of mutual respect. When we have Guild Leaders, Officers, and GMs posting / ranting / flaming / trolling in RnFs, the animosity and negative feelings those posts engender carry over into all other discussions. To put it in eq terms, you lack faction with the other person at the table, and nothing meaningful can result. IF folks want to white knight for their respective classes and enjoy RnF then they should not have a voice at this table. Instead, send us a representative who we don't already dislike from their scrawls on the bathroom walls. 7. Multiple voices. This forum is suppose to be a venue where the representatives of their respective guilds, and staff come together to speak in a polite manner to work out problems. Currently, we have guilds (and GMs) posting conflicting messages, and some times contradictory messages. Guilds at the very least should get on the same page and be empowered to speak for their respective guild. 8. History. The history of this server has created a lot of animosities. Rightly or wrongly, we had 2 years of "no csr in VP", and epics held for ransom which may or may not have contributed to RMTing. Either way, it's hard to sit down and work together when we have that kind of history going on. 9. Vague issues and no deadlines. A good mediated conflict resolution scheme should have a well-outlined issue, and a time horizon. Currently, we have a bunch of open ended stuff which has no bite to it. IB has stopped even posting in this section, and maybe they are correct to not do so. I will stop there. Personally, I think we should all take some responsibility and stop trolling each other. Also, I think it is wise to remember that the raid scene is a million times better than it was before Rogean's changes. Ask for less; donate more.
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Drakakade ~ Divinity
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#4
10-29-2014, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
- The first guild to jump the gun on the poopsocking was Europa, who very shortly after the changes went in decided to sit their entire raid force at the entrance of KC early in it's window. At which point i jumped over to the BDA vent, had a middle man talk about it with Chest, and he got them to stand down. As far as the war of escalation over the simple desire to race from the zoneline goes: - First guild to switch up where we all understood to run from - Taken (FoB instead of TT) - First guild to bring in and use a mage - Taken (Sev) - First guild to start coth ducking - Taken (Naggy) - First guild to always start coth ducking after that first time - Taken - First and only guild to try and skirt the zoneline rule by binding toons within a raid zone - Taken (Naggy) That's not even getting into your leader being popped for autofire (overdue personal thanks on that btw, after i spent months trying to fight through your previous indifference to get that no tracker FTE rule in), killing mobs you didn't have FTE on, and/or the multiple feign ignorance infractions when you screwed everybody else out of an FTE either. Meanwhile in Class C, where people had a legitimate interest in both competing and making that competition work, 2 guilds who mostly loathe each other made a simple deal that took all of 20 minutes. No mages, and everybody running from the same spot (with no more then sow speed in VP, so anybody with a pot could do it). That deal still stands today. Has TMO had various incidents of people needing to be told to stop exp'ing/cash camping and gtfo out of a zone? Sure, same as everybody else (i've personally had to point out your shamans camping Tranix shouldn't be there on multiple occasions). To my knowledge nobody has had any real issues resulting out of such though, unless you want count BDA on that Trak. Do we tend to field a couple extra people that hang around and keep our pullers/tank buffs up? Yup. Does that number tend to creep up the very small amount of times we see a select few mobs go stupid late in window? Sure. That is all still a far, far cry away from Taken batphoning a dkp poopsock raid on VS a few spawns back with 9 hours left in his window, and then parking a 50+ man raid at the ent of KC. Wasn't the first time, won't be the last. Which for the record, the last person to call one of those monstrosities for TMO was Eccezan, and he quit back in March. In fact, and outside 2-3 mobs who went to a minus 30 minute window, i personally can't recall a single instance of either Class C guild sitting an entire raid at a zoneline. I can however recall multiple incidents of Class R guilds doing it in FFA, which likely accounts for a significant % of their individual attempts at that. But by all means, keep spinning away here...with your hand held out in a veiled attempt to score yourself more uncontested mobs. Personally, I came here to reach out to the other guilds, in hopes that at least a few of the not so jaded bunch might actually possess the ability to see past this wall of "with no high level guarantee of loot, it's just not worth it" shortsightedness a few of you have built around yourself. That starts with a willingness to embrace the potential of regular failure as an acceptable option though...something half here have already proven their unwillingness to do over the years. Regardless what changes could/should be made to accommodate them. Maybe i'm just too much of an optimist though. I was really hoping to see at least one cut-to-the-chase "with change X/Y/Z, you could expect my guild to be willing to go after FFA mobs" post go up [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | |||
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#5
10-29-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
we have never posted up at FoB for Sev, and I dont think anyone ever moved out there but Asgard one time when they were asking if it was 'ok'. Didn't want to be nitpicky, but when you list my guild's "infractions" might as well have them be accurate. Going back to reading..... | |||
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#6
10-29-2014, 09:43 AM
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Maz,
I dont want to go back and forth with you in the raid discussion. We have essentially just slung poo at each of our guilds and it looks very bad. Taken has been blamed for the current FFA problems ( hilighted by your post ) and yes I am sorry but TMO was the first guild to escalate the re-newed socking. You refer to it as 'keeping players around to buff' which my guild also did but we would camp those toons out because we feared having more than the 2 trackers in the zone would DQ us. TMO kept people at the zone lines and would basically 'dare' others to prove they were in the wrong. That is a 100% fact. Even Jeremy was refusing to move from his favorite afk KC spot. Heallun spoke his mind and it hilighted the mindset of TMO members regardless it being a RnF post, many shared his same viewpoint about the legitimacy of TMO hangin out at the zone in with mobs in window. I think its cute you say I was indifferent about the Tracker not FTEing thing when I agree'd with such a rule and not only that, Taken's own guild leader was the first to post such a ruleset proposal here: http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=139118 However continue to take credit for the idea. I love that you and IB enjoy your racing in VP, that is great but just because you guys came to an agreement in 20 min does not mean that the rest of the server for 'not agreeing' to a race with you guys are in the wrong. My post is not only not solving anything but not constructive. I will say one last thing. The horror of a Class R guild having it's members band together for a specific goal ( FFA VS ) and putting in effort that is well within the current ruleset. Shame on Taken for letting it's guild members know via text that we were all hanging out in KC and if they were interested in joining to come sit. It was not required at all, nor was it something forced upon anyone. Class R rosters and make up are different than yours. Sometimes we have to go to more extreme measures to simply 'have a shot'. Kinda bad for yourself, someone who has killed Venril Sathir well over 200 times ( at least encountered him that much), to be talking down to my guild who has many members who not only never seen VS on P99 but certainly never experienced a FFA kill on him. I am sorry our strategy worked out and I apologize to the rest of the raid discussion members/readers/moderators that such a pointlessly unproductive post had to be written in a good thread. | ||
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Last edited by Erati; 10-29-2014 at 09:52 AM..
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#8
10-29-2014, 11:36 AM
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^ well said Chest.
Deru, I think part of the problem is the fact that guilds will have people in these zones during the windows. What is considered a poopsock by the staff which is deemed frowned up? Currently within this ruleset you are allowed ( when competing for a Raid target): 2 Trackers near the spawn point. Since things shifted to favor COHing FTEers, you will most likely also have 2 FTEers grouped with your 2 mage trackers. so far a min of 4 people in the zone.... TMO stated they like to have someone there buffing, so ench/clr/shaman buffing the 2 FTEers....around 1 full group 6 people. 6 people seems reasonable to not call it a 'poopsock' even tho it still technically is....so where is the line drawn. Lets continue to use the whipping boy Taken as an example here. Just me quickly typing that and thinking, I realize that its pretty normal to expect competition to have at least a group parked at the zone line for FTEers + buffers. Considering they have far more experience/numbers/gear than any Class R roster, the only way to combat that advantage is numbers. Like Chest points out, we are constantly told to 'try harder', mostly by our own Server GM Sirken. So if we say bring a second group for 'support', suddenly we are in the wrong for doing so. How exactly are guilds who lack the experience, gear, roster and levels able to ever 'up the ante' in a way that is not deemed frowned upon? We cant use numbers ( get flamed for poopsocking ) We cant use creative strats ( get flamed for ducking COH, binding, poopsock rushing ) Like I have stated in fun on-going server chat thread....the system is currently C/C/R... The FFA tier is anything BUT FFA since apparently there is more rules to a FREE FOR ALL than there are in the Class R rotation. Lets get rid of it and have a real FREE FOR ALL when the world shakes and swift decisions, movement, communication, coordination and tactics can be on display. It would be a beautiful thing, and poopsocks would die instantly. I have no idea why we cant even at least 'try' it for a month.....what is the harm? | ||
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Last edited by Erati; 10-29-2014 at 11:59 AM..
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#9
10-29-2014, 12:16 PM
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C/R + FFA repops continues to be the easiest solution to most of the problems.
eliminates the rule book for new raid guilds entering the scene eliminates the socking eliminates the drama fosters REAL competition Class C can keep VP. And compete on a true level playing field without the lawyer's handbook on everything else. You want the socking to stop at the same time that you want people to compete and try harder. this is an obvious answer to it all Also I am not the leader of Taken and I don't get why certain individuals and guilds keep saying this while pointing fingers at me. Dislike me and accuse me of what you will, but the "actual" leader of Taken is Fearstalker. So if you have some sort of grievance against me then try taking it up with him. I follow his instructions. And if he actually agrees with you that I have been somehow out of line I can promise you that I will be dealt with. Good luck. | ||
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Last edited by -Catherin-; 10-29-2014 at 12:21 PM..
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#10
10-29-2014, 02:25 PM
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Everquest raiding is basically a virtual chat room until you have a target. Your posts about not wanting people to wait around on a mob are delusional. There is nothing else to do with your character except wait around on a mob and talk to people. People want to play Everquest you want them to play another game it seems.
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Elzhi <Indignation>
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