The Current Raid Environment

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or no mages? Maybe both?

For all the talk that's gone on in these threads about the poopsocking, i find it strange to seemingly see everybody here (but Chest) take such an anti-mage stance at this point. Given at it's core that has essentially played out to be the biggest poopsocking killer of all, as it negates quite a bit of the "necessary" manpower one might otherwise feel compelled to need in most cases before that 2 man team (as opposed to going the zoneline body count advantage route) turns a capped FTE attempt into a multi-minute prep time window for their entire guild. Of course, assuming people are willing to camp out at zone lines and send out a batphone.

I mean sure, coth ducking can suck. But like the 50 man in-game poopsock approach, that's more a Taken aspect in FFA play then a Class C thing, given they are the first to both introduce and always escalate it's use (anytime i've mage tracked and Taken is not there, i never have had a problem coming to an unsaid "if you don't do it neither will we" understanding with the opposing IB tracker). Probably best to cut right through Catherin's misinformation and gaming of the system attempts...then start by taking that up with her if you really have an issue on that.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by jpetrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did no one read this? Stop making huge walls of text and lets get all the guilds on the raid roster to say they want variance reduced further.

I know variance was historically put in place to spread guilds out more and reduce drama from encounters, but effectively it has only managed to create a competitive gap between the large and small guilds. If you can afford to throw more characters (and bodies) in a guild, then you can increase exposure to the window and ultimately improve the odds of getting the target. When the odds are small of success (i.e. smaller guilds) no one wants to toss away 16 hrs of their time on a regular basis. This ends up leaving the majority of FFA targets to bigger guilds.

The other side to that coin is that without a variance you get the zerg army of poopsockers lined up at the zone wall waiting for the encounter to pop. There is an advantage to variance, but if it was reduced to a more reasonable window you would see a lot more guilds getting involved in the scene. You could probably boil it down to a formula involving level of resources drained(16 hours of prep & tracking) x CoTH ducking & raid scene lawyering / value of potential encounter (fight entertainment, pixels, ect). If we cannot change the second variable (the way FFA is playing out) can we reduce the very long drain on our resources so we can endure it for a more reasonable time?

I can probably get my guild to do anything for 6 hours. I cannot get them to consistently desire to participate in this raid scene for a potential 16 hours.

With the new raid rules, I think it's fair to say that the server's raid scene is more diverse than ever and generally less tumultuous than before. In light of this, would it not be sensible to reduce the window on raid targets to something more palatable for everyone (+/- 6hrs, 3hrs?)

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Anichek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think in order to be productive, we need to create a list of what guilds consider the flaws in the system to be.

Assuming no change in set up of R and C content (VP) -

Variance mods - increase/decrease/randomize?
Tracking and staging of characters for engagement
ROE (Rules of Engagement) - who can? who can't?
FFA considerations (bag limits, ineffective way to spur competition)
R to C transitioning, C to R transitioning, benchmarks for each
Post-Velious launch considerations: discuss continuance of class system? re-assignment of content if class system stays in place?

Just trying to brainstorm ideas, once again. I know that all of these topics have been points of discussion or thoughts that many of us feel we need to address. Would be more than happy to add to this - perhaps we can start a new thread (keeping the argument out of the thread) just to list discussion points?

This is a great idea, and I was going to suggest it in my post but thought it was too much at once. I also felt it was sort-of addressed in the OP and didn't want to re-hash the subject, but in reality a post/thread addressing these concerns would be a good step in the right direction. Identifying specific problems that all guilds feel need to be dealt with will help everyone to get a clear and concise picture of what changes should be made.

[Argh]

If a consensus was reached with regard to reducing variance, would changes be implemented?

[rafaone]

Europas stance is this;

Reduced variance would be good, no reason to be forced to track 16 hour windows in a 15 year old elf simulator
The best solution to the C/R/FFA solution would be what Catherin suggested, making mobs rotate between C & R, and make all sim respawns FFA.
We understand why this is difficult and why GMs/devs don't want to make more changes, but FFA mobs on sim respawns is the only true competition, FFA atm is just 16-hour-poopsuck-click-spam-fest and again, 15 year old elf simulator, we are adults, we have lives.
VP is not an option for us atm, but we think it would be great if R guilds could combine up for FFA VP kills without getting flagged C - worth considering.
VPs status might need to be reconsidered in Velious, especially if C guilds interest in VP drop to near zero as suggested by TMO.

Very interesting to hear that TMO has no/little interest in old world raid mobs come Velious (from RNF thread) - is that also IBs stance, and if that is so, will C remove themselves from the rotation of said mobs?

[rafaone]

puts this problem to bed entirely.
I don't see us backing this idea anytime soon because we still really want to encourage guilds to at least try to practice in preparation for a transition. While I'm fully aware this isn't happening right now, that isn't to say it won't in the future - for all we know, there may be a guild getting ready to rock-and-roll any day now. That being said, if 100% of the guilds agreed, we'd almost assuredly do it anyway. The problem is I really don't see a universal agreement as a possibility, so it's probably better to move onto something different.

We in Europa think its a shame you see it this way Derubael. Moving to a C/R rotation with FFA on sim respawns would allow for true competition on FFA mobs rather than the best rules lawyer winning the fight.
For some reason you think that the reason guilds don't want to move into C is harder competition, but its not - its the environment. Its having to fraps every right, use douchy tactics, spend 16 hrs ducking a mage, to get a fraction of a chance of killing a mob, that we might loose anyway because we are not ready to/skilled at rules lawyering.
On Wednesday we went up to Hate, which was empty at the time, and as we started clearing another guild came up and said they had been here and wiped, and if we could do a joint raid. In the spirit of cooporation we called off the official part of our raid and joined up with said guild for a joined raid, instead of it ending up as a shitstorm - because its pixels. We don't want a shitstorm. We don't want to try and find loopholes in rules, use rules against other guilds, discuss how far away a mage can stand from the spawn point. That is not skills, that is not challenge, its just.....P99 raid scene prior to new raid agreement.

C/R rotation would allow R guilds to gear up slowly, as they are now to prepare for a very different environment in Velious, and FFA on sim respawns would allow us to fairly compete with other guilds (including C guilds) without having to worry about 213 different rules that the behaviour of a few guilds have warranted. Europa refuse to stoop to the current FFA scene, not because we don't want to kill the mobs, but because its not enjoyable, and we play on this server to enjoy it.
If any guild does NOT want this change (C/R and FFA on sim respawns), its only admitting that its because they are not a better raid guild, but just better at rules lawyering and socking, that they get the mobs they do today.

The fact that class R turned into a rotation should tell you a lot about what kind of raid scene we find enjoyable. Its not because we don't want to compete for the mobs, its because we don't want to stoop to the kind of tactcs and douchebaggery time and time again shown on FFA mobs, and we know that some of our guilds inevitable get dragged down to that level as well. We don't want that, its not enjoyable, its not fun.

We have on multiple occasions said that we would love to take part in a conversation about these topics on either your stream, or in a personal conversation, and that offer still stands should you want us.

[Derubael]

^I'm only one of the four staff members that you'd need to convince in order to enact a big change like this. Keep in mind that any large change is going to be met with resistance from all of us, just because of the necessary adjustments needed for that to take place (code changes to website, database, and codebase, general re-acclamation/explanation). That being said, I base my predictions off what I know about my colleagues and my experiences with them. They generally don't take time to come here and give advice or explanations, so I try to give you guys an idea of where they fall on various topics. I could be wildly inaccurate in my predictions, but I very much doubt it. Especially this close to Velious, where most of this is no longer going to matter, putting work into a major overhaul seems fruitless.

I understand the trepidation in moving to Class C, and that it isn't all stemming from not wanting to put an inordinate amount of time/effort into getting mobs. It's a legitimate concern that the hyper-competitive Class C runs into problems more frequently than R. But Class C's two guilds have done a remarkable job in both reducing the number of possible disputes, as well as solving the ones that do arise in a civil manner. Both TMO and IB have put significant effort into ending what they themselves refer to as "petition/frapsquest", something both guilds hate participating in and have recently gone to great lengths to reduce. The reality of open-world competitive raiding like we find in EQ is that mistakes are going to be made. Any guild that isn't willing to accept any risk at all in their engagements isn't going to be able to move to Class C.

Edit: Would still love to bring a few guilds from Class-R onto GMChat. Haven't had a ton of time to do episodes recently (you'll notice I only made it through 2 in the month in a half since we've spoken) and when I do, it's usually a last minute thing thrown together the day before.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any guild that isn't willing to accept any risk at all in their engagements isn't going to be able to move to Class C.
thrown together the day before.

Deru, we are not against taking risks and getting involved in the FFA scene, we are against getting involved in this particular raid scene.

Let's remove all our jargon and talk about what we are really suggesting. In class R,you have a guild that is currently enjoying the game sans raid mobs until a very specific time when they know they need to be prepared to do so (your window is up for mob_X). Chillin, relaxing, dungeoning, marketeering ect, ect. They don't have to park their mains at particular places and let them collect days and days of dust to compete against 600 other people praying to Innoruk that some other guild's mage suddenly is struck with some form of metacarpal injury.

We don't want to do that forever either, however. We want FFA and we enjoy FFA. But we won't participate in anything that causes us to radically change our entire lives and way we play the game to do that. If we made all of repops FFA and removed the FFA cycle, R/C/R/C, then there would be no poop socking of any kind in any category other than C. It just wouldn't exist under any circumstance because there would be no need for it. Class R really, really wants FFA, but we have a different style of game play. Its a killer on morale to force a guild of people who specifically join your guild to get away from the poopsocking debacle play style into doing just that. We have to pick and choose when we can even put an FFA mob on our calendar outside of earthquakes based upon how high our current morale level is because we have seen people leave because of it.

EQ raiding is more than pixels, its about enjoying a game that we all know and love. Some of us love the racing aspect of the game, some love the server wide cooperation and some love the thrill of being the one to get the mob over someone else (there is nothing wrong with that competitive spirit).

But, honestly, the whole idea of a tiered system based on play style preferences is flawed. The categories Rogean created were based on play style, not capability. I was in all the summit meetings, I heard discussion from day one and know this to be true. We based our proposals on play style, we ratified based on play style and if you look at the current player base in each category, class R and C are made up of those play styles. If a member of AG leaves to TMO I don't get pissy, I just say "I'm glad you have discovered how you can best enjoy EQ, I'm glad we were able to help you figure that out."

I WANT to do FFA with IB and TMO, but not on their terms and I don't want them to have to play in our play style either. That makes no sense logically or according to the original intent of the 1/1/1 system. But if all repops were FFA (with or without bag limists) it would allow us all to play the game we ALL enjoy and have FFA. Remove VP access to class R and you still get a privileged status for class C.

I know it makes work for you, but it really is a good solution that doesn't rely on poopsocking, the fastest bard race or who has the faster SSD.

Sorry for the TL;DR post.

[Sirken]

i posted this somewhere else, i suppose its relevant enough to post here as well:

couple things.


1. We arent changing the R/C/FFA cycle to anything else.
2. VP mobs will remain Class C only mobs for as long as its the top endgame zone.
3. I will talk to the staff about a concrete way for guilds to be able to move from C to R, however this has to be done very carefully to prevent top guilds from moving down to R.


This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

[jpetrick]

Pick one thing. I would prefer reduced variance because FFA is stupid, but if you want to remove mages, fine, my guild will get behind that just so we can get something done.