Autosplit System: P99 vs Live

[Uthgaard]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and the lack of knowing just exactly the system worked in classic because we know it didn't result in the looter having THAT much of an advantage

I wasn't just making it up:

A: This question is the source of much angst, and isn't as simple as it might seem on the surface. Autosplit is something each person turns on or off (using the /autosplit command, or /au for short). If the person looting a corpse has it turned on, any cash found is split evenly among all players in the group (even those who have it turned off). (This doesn't apply when a player loots their own body, of course.) Sounds fair, doesn't it?

The catch is, it's implemented in a logical way in a roleplaying environment, which is to say it splits the COINS you get, instead of splitting the CASH VALUE of those coins. It doesn't make change. And it does this separately for each type of coin. If, as is often the case, the coins can't be divided evenly, the game gives any left over coins to the looter. So suppose a mob drops 5pp. In a two-player group, the looter gets 3pp and the other player gets 2pp. In a three-player group, the looter still gets 3pp and the others each get 1pp. In a six-player group, none of the 5pp can be divided evenly, so the looter keeps all of it! Even when there are some coins given out to the rest of the group by this method, the looter is more often than not getting twice or three times as many coins as the rest.

The innocent (such as yourself) will loot freely, thinking they are being fair. They will also happily allow others to loot, thinking that they are getting a fair share. The unscrupulous will arrange to do most of the looting while allowing the uninitiated (such as yourself) to think they are getting a fair share. And of course, if someone in your group is looting with autosplit on, you can't know if they're innocent or unscrupulous, which can lead to some bad feelings. What's worse, if you try to work around the problem by looting with autosplit OFF, planning to split the money later (preferably after selling off any vendor trash items as well), the innocent may get upset because they think you're planning to abscond with all the money (which has, alas, been known to happen also).

The best compromise seems to be to have the group choose one person to be "main looter" (ML), and that person is responsible for selling the items and splitting all the cash when the group is ready to break up. This still gets awkward if some people leave the group early and/or other people join partway through, but it's still a lot more fair. Another approach that is sometimes used is "open looting" (also called FFA, or free-for-all), where everybody is free to loot (usually with autosplit ON), which works well if the group is killing lots of mobs so everyone gets lots of opportunities to loot some.

[Live4Redline]

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasn't just making it up:

The problem is... the loot tables are still wrong.

You can't fix this and NOT fix the loot tables because it just doesn't work right. The mobs are carrying a "Rounded Up Cash Amount" and not a "Coin Count"... and your trying to divide a cash amount by its coins when all the coins have been up converted to a cash amount. It just doesn't work.

In a full group the most you can get from a split is 1g,1s,1c unless you get lucky and find a mob with over 6p and then you'll get 1p,1g,1s,1c. 12p you get 2p,1g,1s,1c. Your seeing allot of 1g or 1s, or 1c. Because the coins on the mobs are not correct.

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If there was an upconvert system, you wouldn't be able to do half the quests in the game.

Some of you are acting as if you're at the mercy of the split system, and all common sense and personal accountability have been stripped from you as a result; taking with it, your ability to receive a fair portion of the split.

Ya a global up convert system in place would destroy everything which is why in live they ended up changing allot of things to except 3250g [OR] 325p. But thats a whole nothing subject and doesn't really have anything to do with this. There was already an up convert system in place for the autosplit before the group patch and it didn't hurt anything. And you can fix this problem with a down convert system JUST TO SPLIT the money evenly and thats it. It'll be like like it was before patch but with out the ability to /split money in the effect to turn copper into gold (<-- Up converting *Exploit).

And Uthgaard go check out a mid range group of six somewhere and watch the loot on different mobs. And you'll notice that your only getting 1s, nothing, 1c, nothing, nothing, 1s, nothing, 1c, nothing, 1g (OH SNAP), 1c, nothing. Its just not right mate. (And them nothings are NOT from people looting the corpse twice its because the mob didn't drop more then 6g or 6s or 6c.)

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an incredibly important and correct post. If you downconvert, you will loot almost zero platinum off old world mobs, ever, in a full group. Below sol b and lguk, you will rarely loot gold. The rest of the coin adds up so quickly it has to be destroyed. You have to add back in the splitting upconvert function if you add in a downconverting function.

We were already using a down convert system before this patch. So it would all depend on how you did the down convert. If you try and still down convert the coins you may run into "Over Coining" but if you just down convert the cash value like it was done previously you wouldn't have any issues at all but you also wont have the looter getting more money then the rest of the group like it was in classic. I'm not sure how Rogean is planning to do it so that's just one of them wait and see things. But "Over Coining" is still a better system then what is currently in place. At least if you have the coins you can do something with them over the not getting any coins at all unless you /loot it.



Personally I think down splitting the looted cash amount and removing the "/split exploit" is the best route since we can't completely mimic a classic coin drop.

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have spoke with nilbog about the system, and in interest of common fairness for all group members, and the lack of knowing just exactly the system worked in classic because we know it didn't result in the looter having THAT much of an advantage, we will be changing it to downconvert leftover coins downward until left with only copper remains. This means that the most the looter could ever get over the rest of the group is 5 copper.

Thank you sir!

[Engraverwilliam]

@ Rogean - Best thing I've read in the whole thread :-)

[Revol]

In practice this means depending on where you are in the group you may only get 0 0 0 some CP as loot. If you have a mob drop 5pp in a 6 person group why not have it split to 8gp 33sp 33cp and the remainder to the looter? Emulating something that was screwed up to begin with is just plain dumb imo.

[beeshma_nameless]

I would think "converting" the dropped coins (pp to gp, gp to sp etc) for the purpose of split is kinda strange ;-p

Why not just have it as it was, and in group do FFA with /split on? worked on live well in most PUGs - though the looter did get a bit of an advantage when the coins didnt split evenly.

P.S: Does rogue pickpocket take from the mob's loot coin value, thereby reducing the dropped coins when mob dies? I remember huge heartburn threads on the old whineplay forums on this in 99...

[Revol]

Originally Posted by beeshma_nameless [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would think "converting" the dropped coins (pp to gp, gp to sp etc) for the purpose of split is kinda strange ;-p

Why not just have it as it was, and in group do FFA with /split on? worked on live well in most PUGs - though the looter did get a bit of an advantage when the coins didnt split evenly.

P.S: Does rogue pickpocket take from the mob's loot coin value, thereby reducing the dropped coins when mob dies? I remember huge heartburn threads on the old whineplay forums on this in 99...

In practice what happens is the casters are medding because they are a little LOM, then puller is out pulling, the rogue is trying to BW up and the bard or ranger is looting everything.

That's a generalization, but that's often what is happening with this new system. Not only do the greedheads get the items, but they also get a bulk of the cash. If the split was more even it would be less of an issue, instead of one more straw on the camels back.

[Uthgaard]

Originally Posted by Revol [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a generalization, but that's often what is happening with this new system.

It's not a new system. It's been around since the dawn of everquest. But suddenly your attention has been called to it, and thus the sand went places sand ought never be.

[Revol]

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not a new system. It's been around since the dawn of everquest. But suddenly your attention has been called to it, and thus the sand went places sand ought never be.

Perhaps so [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe that's something that should be corrected, rather than "kept classic". However, I don't remember there being so many "You receive 0pp 0gp 0sp 1cp from the split" messages.

[Noselacri]

If you implement a system that downconverts coins for the sake of fairness, you'll pretty much have to reinstate the self-split upconvert. People will end up with so many coins on them that anything else will be unplayable. You will practically never see platinum or even gold coins in groups anymore, because mobs very rarely drop enough of these to be split fully among a whole group, and the result will be that a gaming session's cash loot ends up as 30g, 2000s, 5000c. Any cash drop of 1-5g in a full group would become worthless as noone can group for any length of time without having to destroy the staggering amount of silver that would convert into. You'd have to either destroy all the cash you get or accept being perma-rooted in groups as logic dictates that the current (seemingly appropriate) amounts of cash dropped by mobs would, in an even-handed downconvert system, almost always end up as ten times as much silver and copper. The original autosplit system at least ensured that the currency dropped by mobs stayed intact until exchanged in a bank. In places like SolA, Mistmoore etc., the typical mob cash drop will be something like 5g 8s 6c. All of this would turn into silver and copper, and people will have to destroy it in order to play. If anyone is concerned about low-levels being able to make money, or with promoting playability through a non-classic invention, please first consider this.

The mob would have to drop 6 or more gold for anyone to get more than silver, which is far from the norm even in level 30s dungeons, and you simply won't see platinum until you go to sell the loot and make change in the bank. Since this would absolutely require the old solo-split trick, you would have to implement two completely non-classic systems purely for the sake of convenience where it was never a problem in the original game. I fail to see the benefit in that. I was led to believe that any non-classic feature found here was due to not being able to change it, or it having absolutely no influence on gameplay. This would be neither, and it would "fix" a "problem" that we lived with just fine. People have just become complacent.

The perceived problem is completely circumvented by occasionally looting yourself rather than depending entirely on others to do it for you. If you can't take three seconds every few minutes to click on a handful of corpses, you're too lazy to get loot. This is how it always worked. It was never a problem. No invented system needs to be implemented to cater to those who have forgotten how the game was played.