Twinkage: Warrior Advice

[Fawqueue]

Awesome guys, thanks for all the info so far! I suppose when I first posted this, I had a conflict of ideas in the back of my mind. My warrior friend does have the two obsidian shards, I think I was going back and forth as I wrote this about what's ideal at level 1 vs what would be ideal pre-raid at level 50.

All the repsonses have left me with a few questions though.

1) Comparing earrings: Is the Golden Black Sapphire (25hp) actually better than the Diamondine (2ac, 12hp, 3str)? It comes down to 13hp vs 2ac and 3str...my inexperienced melee mind would say the extra ac alone is worth that small amount of hp. But that's why I'm here, to talk to the pros!

2) I was wrong about the neck...thought he was using the Runed Lava Pendant I'd given him..but he has a Golden Opal Amulet (9STA, 6AGI). What's the conversion of Stamina to HP at level 1? And 50? I imagine it's low enough that the Black Sapphire with the 55hp is superior at level 1, but is the 55hp still more than the 9 stamina would give at level 50? Just curious which he'll end up with when all is said and done.

3) I admit I hadn't considered AC and Dex as highly as it seems I should have. With that in mind, my friend rolled a barbarian (I tried to talk him into Ogre, but he wouldn't listen to reason). Right now his Dexterity is 70, and he's equipped with everything I mentioned in the OP. For now i will have him use crafted vambraces instead of the mithril arms, get a grotesque mask, replace the hero bracer with another granite, and drop the hooded black cloak for a cloak of shadows. Is there anything else specifically I should swap to make him a more efficient tank now/later?

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Fawqueue [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) Comparing earrings: Is the Golden Black Sapphire (25hp) actually better than the Diamondine (2ac, 12hp, 3str)? It comes down to 13hp vs 2ac and 3str...my inexperienced melee mind would say the extra ac alone is worth that small amount of hp. But that's why I'm here, to talk to the pros!

2) I was wrong about the neck...thought he was using the Runed Lava Pendant I'd given him..but he has a Golden Opal Amulet (9STA, 6AGI). What's the conversion of Stamina to HP at level 1? And 50? I imagine it's low enough that the Black Sapphire with the 55hp is superior at level 1, but is the 55hp still more than the 9 stamina would give at level 50? Just curious which he'll end up with when all is said and done.

3) I admit I hadn't considered AC and Dex as highly as it seems I should have. With that in mind, my friend rolled a barbarian (I tried to talk him into Ogre, but he wouldn't listen to reason). Right now his Dexterity is 70, and he's equipped with everything I mentioned in the OP. For now i will have him use crafted vambraces instead of the mithril arms, get a grotesque mask, replace the hero bracer with another granite, and drop the hooded black cloak for a cloak of shadows. Is there anything else specifically I should swap to make him a more efficient tank now/later?

1. ) Golden Black Sapphire Earrings are 2ac 35hp 25mana. That's the one you want, it's no contest over the diamondines, esp if it's a large race warrior.

2. ) The Golden Opal Amulet is like 80pp... The Black Sapphire Neck is 7000pp. Consider the extra agility a gift. It's super hard to justify the extra expense, this would be the first concession i would make, even if technically you'll end up with more hps at even lvl 50 using the plat black sapphire neck.

3. ) 70 is pretty yikes for DEX. You might even consider a Golden Black Pearl Choker (7agi/7dex) in the neck slot. Grot Mask is pretty much your only salvation, besides maybe Dwarven Work Boots and the Cloak of Shadows you mentioned. There's simply not a lot of dex gear out there for warriors that doesn't call for a huge AC/HP compromise.

Easiest soluton:

4. ) Don't group with monks/rogues/rangers. Use whatever weapons/gear you want.

[Gawain]

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Gawain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

/shrug

Just the way it was coded, I guess. That is what the parses showed.

[Noleafclover]

Yeah, I'm just being idealistic because warriors really do need the help, and many classes could do a lot to watch their aggro better.

[Fawqueue]

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

[Noselacri]

Is this proven? People say the rampage effect on the Axe of the Slayers generates aggro too. When I'm using it, mobs just ignore me until I get my Obsidian Shards back out. If anything, it generates aggro from big damage but that's all I've noticed. It would be cool to get some background on this. Was it ever officially disclosed or is this one of those old EQ rumors? Or is this just how it works on P99?

I can't point you toward any source of information, but it was always widely regarded as an acceptable aggro weapon, and it certainly has been for me both here and back in the day. The aggro gain from the proc itself isn't huge, but it's decent enough, probably about half of a stun or shatter, and it has the aforementioned advantage of being AoE aggro that doesn't aggro more mobs or break mez. Kinda like healing somebody, really. It's very easy to see in practice, it doesn't take extensive use to notice mobs you haven't targeted to turn on you when it procs. I can demonstrate it for you in-game sometime if you're interested enough. Considering that the weapon's ratio is perfectly reasonable and the proc also helps your mitigation immensely until level 20ish, I say it's some of the best 100pp you can spend. I soloed 12-16 in Unrest literally without downtime, because on top of the reasonable absorb shield, the proc has some kind of small HoT that heals you for like 15-20hp over a few seconds after proccing. Stops being much good after level 20ish, though, because mob damage scales much more rapidly than the size of the rune, and you don't benefit much from the mini-HoT when the rune breaks instantly. Even so, I occasionally find use for the aggro properties now at level 24, because it's pretty tough generating aggro on 4-5 mobs as a warrior. Be aware, however, that the buff reduces agility by a fair amount and can take you below 75 if you're a clumsy race. And, since the buff gives a sizeable amount of strength for the duration, it conflicts with strength buffs and will either remove lower-level str buffs or will fail to apply if a higher level buff is active.

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

Off-hand weapons have a naturally halved proc rate. Also, you'll generally swing a bit less with your off-hand, especially before level 40+, so that reduces the frequency as well.

Procs have a % chance per swing that amounts to a theoretical average number of procs per minute, usually 1-3. Most weapons with procs universally have the same chance, but some have a higher than average; 90% of the weapons in the game have the same PPM, a sort of standard that applies to almost all of them except the occasional special weapon. This PPM is independent of attack speed because it adjusts the actual % chance to proc per swing according to your speed, so that a fast weapon will have a low chance and a slow weapon will have a high. If the PPM is the same (and it usually is) the average number of procs over extended periods of time will be the same. Equipping an FBSS actually reduces an SSoY's proc%, but since you swing more often, you won't see less (or more) procs.

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

First off, ogres are generally considered the best race, yes. However, this stops mattering fairly early, or even becomes untrue once it becomes possible to easily max str/sta. Ogres have really high starting stamina but will eventually end up having a lot of essentially wasted points when their gear gives them +200 stamina and they only need +100 to cap out. This isn't easily attained until at least endgame Kunark, though. Since gear tends to have much more str/sta than dex, having high dex eventually pays off a lot. Agility gives almost nothing as long as you're above 75 (going below 75 gives a noticeable AC penalty) and generally isn't worth looking for at all. I'm pretty sure all warrior races have at least 75 by default, anyway.

Dex is a pretty good stat in general as it improves proc rate a little, and less importantly crit rate. However, having played a number of emu servers, I seem to have noticed that it helps more here than it did on Live, so I find it even more appealing than I usually did. Back in the day I would never have made a warrior that wasn't an ogre with all stamina, but this time I made a dwarf with all dex. Sitting at 150 dex with minimal dex gear is kinda nice, especially at levels where the stamina->hp formula is shitty.

Ogres still have stun immunity and slam, though. I'm not too concerned about the former when playing warriors, I think it's more of a shaman/SK thing, especially SK as they pretty much always tank while casting, and for a warrior it only means like .5 seconds of potentially wasted auto-attack time once in a while. Slam is really hard to give up, though, until level 55 when kick begins to stun. Fighting casters without slam is like twice as hard.

[Noleafclover]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Procs have a % chance per swing that amounts to a theoretical average number of procs per minute

If you mean hasting yourself would amount to more procs - I can't say first-hand, but almost everyone I've spoken with disagrees with this; and people earlier in the thread responded how slowing yourself would increase your procs per swing.

Unless I'm wildly off-base, you should edit this to avoid confusion. They probably do have a percent chance per swing but that percent chance is altered by your being hasted or slowed so that the procs per minute is fixed.

The mantra on procs I've always heard is: procs per minute is fixed (with the only variable being dex).

[Noselacri]

That's exactly what I wrote.

Originally Posted by Noselacri

PPM is independent of attack speed because it adjusts the actual % chance to proc per swing according to your speed, so that a fast weapon will have a low chance and a slow weapon will have a high. (...) Equipping an FBSS actually reduces an SSoY's proc%, but since you swing more often, you won't see less (or more) procs.

Originally Posted by Thulghor

I could have sworn that this whole "need procs to gain any threat on a mob" thing wasn't that bad in classic and Kunark...

Well, it's a simple matter: warriors do not have some innate bonus hate generation. You build the amount of hate that corresponds to your damage output, and since you don't out-damage actual DPS classes (except maybe rangers) you simply won't generate as much hate as they will. This makes it mathematically impossible to hold aggro over a DPS class unless your weapons proc something that pisses off the mob. Plain DD procs will rarely do the job because unless the weapons proc for so much damage that you end up out-damaging the DPS, which tends not to be the case, it still won't suffice. Thus you need things like stun, debuffs, or straight up +hate from enraging blow.

It's a fairly simple theory: consider for the sake of this argument that 1 damage = 1 hate. Whoever has the most hate is the one the mob is going to hit. There's no way a warrior out-damages a rogue or wizard or whatever, so they will automatically take aggro unless they refrain from doing damage, in which case their presence is sort of pointless. To allow damage-dealers to deal enough damage to warrant their existence, debuffers to debuff the mob early enough to matter, and healers to heal you before you're dead, you have to generate more hate than them, and it is factually impossible to do this with just DPS.

It does feel a little more extreme here than I remember it on Live. There were certain minor mechanics in place that slightly assisted the tank in holding aggro, such as the fact that you actually had a small hate buffer that meant that othes had to generate a bit of extra hate beyond your value before the mob would turn on them. If you were tanking with, say, 1000 current hate, others would have to generate 1100 before they would get aggro; something along those lines. I suspect this might not be in effect here. It didn't do much for long-term aggro maintenance, but it meant the warrior had a little leeway in getting off that first proc without the mob turning away the instant a rogue enables auto-attack. It feels slightly less forgiving here than it ought to be, but the general functionality of aggro and procs is the same.

[Tronjer]

Taunt is indeed almost worthless as it just set one on top of hate list for a moment (+1 hate) and doesn't work on red mobs. This got fixed way late in the game, around 2005 (?).

That said, I still remember us farming VS, the first mob to be main tanked in Kunark, without warrior proc weapons - and it worked. Prior to enraging blow and ae taunt aggro was built by sending a DA puller, pre-tanking from a Ranger with weapon shield and afterwards the warrior took over.

Also keep in mind that Kunark armor lack on stats, what makes it harder to hit stamina cap.