Building a Mosque??? WTF

[Enderenter]

Originally Posted by Rasterburn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With all due respect, let's try this generalization:

Not all muslims are terrorists. But most terrorists are muslims. Fact.

Actually, if you look at the % of terrorists in the world I would have to say more are represented by the religion of Christianity than Islam. KKK, LRA, abortion clinic bombers, just to name a few. They certainly far outweigh (in terms of numbers of people) Al-Qaeda. It would be an interesting study to do, but I'm fairly certain Islam would not be at the top few spots.

Originally Posted by Rasterburn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a broader sense, all muslims -are- terrorists... especially if you are a woman. Because all over the world, Islam encourages oppression and violence towards women. Fact.

Is your ethnocentrism really so overpowering that you think that women across the board are treated worse in Islamic culture than in Western culture?

Originally Posted by Rasterburn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So before you tell me that those are generalizations are somehow faulty, make sure that you have -facts- to support your assertion... because I can promise you that I'll respond with page after page of facts, which make it very clear that my generalization is fundamentally accurate. Including some quotations taken directly from the Koran, which speak quite plainly about murdering "infidels" and treating women like slaves.

I guess you are well versed the Qu'ran. Or maybe you have never read it.

In the case of the latter, I have studied the Qu'ran and spoken with non-Muslim Arabic experts who say that the verses about violence towards infidels are only in the time of war, when a treaty is broken by the opposing "infidels", or in defense. No where does it say to murder infidels who have done nothing.

Originally Posted by Rasterburn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Feel free to invalidate anything that I have said in my previous post. Be sure to cite reliable sources, and not simply personal opinions.

And please remember something important: exceptions do not invalidate the rule. That's why we call them "exceptions." If your Muslim high school buddy (or whatever) is a good guy, then that's great. But there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world, and the overwhelming majority of them fit my previous description perfectly.

I guess you know the overwhelming majority of Muslims then? Or are you just stating personal opinions?

I am by no means a Muslim. I am just seeking peace between people in the West and the East. Let's not allow ourselves to be blinded by historically motivated hatred stemming from the Crusades and continuing today with the act of 9/11. The terrorists' chief goal is for there to be no peace. Our goal should not be in line with theirs.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by Enderenter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is your ethnocentrism really so overpowering that you think that women across the board are treated worse in Islamic culture than in Western culture?

this.

commercially altering model's appearances to billboard them and encite young girls to buy products and hate themselves (example) is really just our sociopathic version of forcing them to cover their entire bodies.

^ which by the way many Muslim women prefer as it allows them fair treatment regardless of how their appearance is.

[purist]

You gotta love the colonial feminists in this thread. These are people who, in any other context, behave as the noted male chauvinists and misogynists that they are. But when the topic turns to the Middle East or Islam, all of a sudden they're champions of the feminist cause, advocating a worldwide campaign of waging wars for the liberation of women (on behalf of the White Man, of course).

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.

Then again, that type of dialogue is way above the heads of most people here. Carry on.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by purist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.
.

no kidding, thanks for clearing that up for no one.

[Enderenter]

Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no kidding, thanks for clearing that up for no one.

Actually, I think he hit a key issue, though his response seems directed not at me or you, but those in the thread who are attacking Islam based on women's rights. (among other things)

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by purist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You gotta love the colonial feminists in this thread. These are people who, in any other context, behave as the noted male chauvinists and misogynists that they are. But when the topic turns to the Middle East or Islam, all of a sudden they're champions of the feminist cause, advocating a worldwide campaign of waging wars for the liberation of women (on behalf of the White Man, of course).

That's not to say there aren't any valid critiques of womens' status in different Muslim societies, each with their own colonial history. But the type of reductionism many of my fellow atheists engage in, wherein it's all inherently religion's fault.. "The oppresion of women in ___ country is all ___ religion's fault" is just obdurate, willful ignorance. I don't believe you can view religion in a vacuum, as an isolated force removed from any broader political context. The predominant factor determining the role Islam plays and character it takes from Afghanistan to Bosnia to Indonesia is going to reflect the material conditions of that country. This is as opposed to it being a reflection of the inherent character of the religion. Religion is rooted in specific socio-economic conditions and until those are transformed simply dealing with the superstructure means nothing. Base determines superstructure. These issues are linked to culture, misogyny, poverty and above all: the male fear of female advancement.

Then again, that type of dialogue is way above the heads of most people here. Carry on.

This is perhaps the most lucid, well thought out piece of writing anyone has ever posted on the p99 boards..

However, it does nothing more than make me think of these filthy peasants arguing with King Arthur:

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[fugazi]

So if theres a 1000 terrorists on earth and over 500 of 'em are muslims, it's cool to treat over 1.5 billion muslims like shit?

That the Islam as a religion is something you disapprove of has no impact whatsoever on how the US constitution applies to muslim US citizens. Calling yourself realistic is nothing but an excuse to yourself for embracing this bigotry of yours.

I don't like it how women are second-grade citizens in Islamic society, but all that has nothing to do with any of this.

[Straif]

Originally Posted by fugazi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't like it how women are second-grade citizens in Islamic society, but all that has nothing to do with any of this.

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Straif [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

i agree with what you say here (that it is easier to accept if you are raised with it), but that logic hardly justifies anything. i believe in moral absolutes (and I know not everyone does) and, by extension, believe that the oppression of women is ALWAYS wrong EVERYPLACE it occurs.

the irony with the dominant radical muslim societies of the middle east is that they have only progressed comparatively to the rest of the world in a backward direction since the middle ages. there was once a time when baghdad, for example, was the cultural and intellectual capital of the world...a leader of medicine, philosophy, etc.

the harsh treatment of women in radical muslim states is not as old a tradition as most people believe. its a relatively modern reactionary set of interpretations of the koran (or, in my opinion, of evil men who use the koran incorrectly to inpower themselves to legitimize their evils)---and, in my opinion, has to do with anything OTHER than the authentic practice of islam.

this is the sort of thing that i was talking about when i said non-radical islam is different...and most of the american muslims I know try very hard to divorce themselves from those radicals who proclaim to be of the same faith as non-radicals.

[fugazi]

Originally Posted by Straif [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a similar gripe about this but I guess when you're indoctrinated into it and raised that way culture and lifestyle reinforces it a lot. I'm sort of the the type where if you don't like it, than fuck it, but that's easier here in the states than somewhere else.

I've grown up with muslim families in my social circles, and you see the girls trying to break free everywhere. It's just hard to break free when you know the male part of your family will see you as an outcast when you take that step. But thats another discussion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]