Elder Scrolls Online

[Grubbz]

I don't even understand why people are trying to convince others one way or another about the game.

Some of us will be buying it, others wont, enough said.

[Grimfan]

I'm not going to stomp on any toes, but if you could re-read your post, and then make it a little easier to read by only referencing each quote once I'd appreciate it. For someone in academia it was very hard for me to slog through a post where each point was hit twice with different information. In fact, I only read it once because even though you changed your points a bit in the second part, but I'll touch on the last paragraph you wrote because I can't really get my head around the last.

I will not be playing the game, and anyone who reads what I have written, and can identify with my position in regards to other games, they will heed my warning, and avoid the game as well. Others who identify better with your position, and believe that there is a difference between the quest-grind, themepark style in WoW and other games listed, and therefore ESO is also distinct, they will heed your advice. You encourage those like you to get into the game, and I discourage those like me from buying the game so that we can get beyond having the same damn MMO published year after year to continue the stagnation in innovation that has hit MMOs. Stagnation from WoW really is the only explanation as to how you have EQ, and then DAoC, and then SWG, and City of Heroes, and then hit WoW, and for the next decade, have nothing but rehashed ideas. I am amazed when people talk about how great and innovative WoW is with the new "Garrisons", meanwhile I just sit here and say that SWG did this a decade ago, EQ and DAoC both instituted guild halls. And that pretty much all the new "innovations" we see are rehashes of the same exact stuff, rather than steps forward. That's why my only hope is for the dynamic creature system and non-quest grind structure EQN is proposing.

I think that ESO is actually a step backwards when it comes to quest design and exploration and I like it. It's not as open world as EverQuest, and I think that is partially because they probably couldn't justify that as good game design anymore. I love classic EverQuest, and part of it is the immersion and the fact that I rely on other people to do content. There's a bit of that in ESO, but it doesn't come close to EverQuest, and I understand your pain in this part. It also does not come close to an Elder Scrolls game, but because games like Skyrim are basically the exact definition of a theme park for one person, I don't think they could really do that.

I'll concede and say that the game is a lot like other MMO's in the way that it has some of the conveniences that others do. I will disagree however that the class system is a poor one, and that the 3 core abilities you get from your class will make that much of a difference when all is said and done when you build your character. Your playstyle will affect your class the most, and I don't feel that your beginning decision will make much of a difference.

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience with it, and I think that what I am saying is that people should give it more than two hours to see how deep it goes. I've never actually seen a game where there are crafting stations that you can discover by exploring non quest areas where you can craft specific set gear that has different abilities. I've honestly just never seen that. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but I've never seen it.

I'm excited to explore and get abilities out in the world rather than just handed to me all at once via the Elder Scrolls model where you are instantly able to do whatever you want if you have an inclination, yet at the same time I'm happy that no matter what class I can be a bow wielding healer/support class if I want, even if they do things a little differently.

Basically, what I am saying is I don't think you gave it enough of a chance, and I think there's a great game in there, it just takes some time to get past the starting areas. You're taking a first impression and blasting away at the game when you really have no idea what you're talking about and so many others are doing the same thing, and that is not something an academic would do in my opinion.

That is why I'm bothering to argue at all. Every comment here that has called the game shit has not taken enough time to play it. I also felt it was shit my first beta test, and then the next beta my girlfriend also got into it and it was suddenly a much better game playing with her. I had someone to adventure around with, and I saw more. We made an effort to get further into the game. The game does make a first bad impression though.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to stomp on any toes, but if you could re-read your post, and then make it a little easier to read by only referencing each quote once I'd appreciate it. For someone in academia it was very hard for me to slog through a post where each point was hit twice with different information. In fact, I only read it once because even though you changed your points a bit in the second part, but I'll touch on the last paragraph you wrote because I can't really get my head around the last.

It was a copy paste error since I was on my university computer, and I fucked up with it. I adjusted it, and cut out everything that was duplicated, I believe. The first many responses were duplicated once, and then the actual conclusion was duplicated. This occurred because when splitting up your quote, I had to copy your Quote text, but toward the end, I had copy pasted the entire page to save it just in case it got eaten when I went to submit. When I decided to add one final note, it slipped my mind that I had saved it (after revision), and I pasted what I thought was the quote tag.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that ESO is actually a step backwards when it comes to quest design and exploration and I like it. It's not as open world as EverQuest, and I think that is partially because they probably couldn't justify that as good game design anymore. I love classic EverQuest, and part of it is the immersion and the fact that I rely on other people to do content. There's a bit of that in ESO, but it doesn't come close to EverQuest, and I understand your pain in this part. It also does not come close to an Elder Scrolls game, but because games like Skyrim are basically the exact definition of a theme park for one person, I don't think they could really do that.

But Skyrim isn't anywhere close to a themepark. A themepark game is one that holds your hand and guides you from each tourist attraction, lets you see it, and then you move on to the next location, consume the content there, and move on to the next, and so on. Skyrim is closer to a sandbox, but it isn't as free as a "sandbox" technically would be, so it is best as an open world RPG, in which you are constantly going back to the same places over and over, you're experiencing the world in many different ways. Just like in early MMO design, you go to the Oasis of Marr multiple times while leveling up, and you don't simply exhaust the location by "finishing" it.

But yes, we can both agree it is a step backwards in terms of quest design, but I think WoW was also a step backwards in terms of quest design. We've been walking backward since EverQuest gave us meaningful quests that have a real feeling of accomplishment.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll concede and say that the game is a lot like other MMO's in the way that it has some of the conveniences that others do. I will disagree however that the class system is a poor one, and that the 3 core abilities you get from your class will make that much of a difference when all is said and done when you build your character. Your playstyle will affect your class the most, and I don't feel that your beginning decision will make much of a difference.

Your play style is shaped by the gaming environment and style in which you're played. No matter what you do, the play style of a Warrior Tank will never be the same as the play style of a Paladin Tank in WoW. Even with allowing different armor types, weapon types (and lets just forget that dual wielding is just spam left click, rather than left/right click, another terrible backward step for TES), a necessary play style will emerge.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience with it, and I think that what I am saying is that people should give it more than two hours to see how deep it goes. I've never actually seen a game where there are crafting stations that you can discover by exploring non quest areas where you can craft specific set gear that has different abilities. I've honestly just never seen that. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but I've never seen it.

I played it for far more than two hours. I played an entire beta weekend, completing the first island entirely on each different class. I referenced to a quest I did in the first two hours, but I played far more than that. Since then, I've done a couple more beta weekends, but continued to do the fighter and sorcerer classes in those successive weekends. However, I have stopped.

WoW has a few instances of crafting stations that are in isolated areas, especially in Lich King for Death Knights and their Runeforging. SWG had some rather rare stations that you had to find to build stuff. I forget about Mandalorian Armor, but I think you had to use a crafting station down in Death Watch Bunker, which is in no way a main questing area/main exploration area.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm excited to explore and get abilities out in the world rather than just handed to me all at once via the Elder Scrolls model where you are instantly able to do whatever you want if you have an inclination, yet at the same time I'm happy that no matter what class I can be a bow wielding healer/support class if I want, even if they do things a little differently.

Yes, but your playstyle as a bow wielding healer/support class will be distinctly different for your class, and so if you want to change up how it goes, you must reroll your toon entirely, which subverts much of the community building that occurs when your name builds a reputation, which is a significant part of why good community develops. People didn't easily reroll alts in EverQuest from max level because of how damn long it took, and so name reputation mattered. SWG did it by giving you only one toon, and in both games, great community exists. Games since? Not that much.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically, what I am saying is I don't think you gave it enough of a chance, and I think there's a great game in there, it just takes some time to get past the starting areas. You're taking a first impression and blasting away at the game when you really have no idea what you're talking about and so many others are doing the same thing, and that is not something an academic would do in my opinion.

I think you took when I referred to a quest I did about two hours in, that I had played for only two hours. I am actually having difficulty finding where I wrote that part, as I am trying to make sure I worded it correctly. But I did not play for only two hours. I played significantly more, and hate the fact that I did, because nothing changed. At first, I thought, "Okay, starting area. I'll give it some time.", but it never improved. Let me know where I said it, and I'll make sure to adjust it. I couldn't find anything related to "Hour", "two", or "2" in my posts so far, all I did find was from my first response to Lune, which makes clear I have played a good bit.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, you have the spellcaster catch all, and the fighter catch all, the two that I played extensively over a number of different beta weekends.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is why I'm bothering to argue at all. Every comment here that has called the game shit has not taken enough time to play it. I also felt it was shit my first beta test, and then the next beta my girlfriend also got into it and it was suddenly a much better game playing with her. I had someone to adventure around with, and I saw more. We made an effort to get further into the game. The game does make a first bad impression though.

I'd dare to say that any MMO played with a close friend is made infinitely better, as it is the social relationship that is providing the quality of the experience, rather than the game itself. My buddy was working the entire weekend, so I was unable to play with him through it, so I judged the game solely by what it offered in terms of design as I have come to look and be critical of over 15 years of playing MMOs, rather than based on what I get out of social connections, which is something any MMO will provide.

[odiecat99]

holy fuck
Get a room you two ! ♥

[Blink]

FUCK U FIGHT ME!!!

[Grimfan]

Yeah, I do think that having her there made me want to play the game further than I had in previous beta tests. I think I only have about 60 hours in the game, both times that I got past the first two newbie areas I got to about level 15. The experience opens up dramatically and it would be easy to miss a whole lot, and that's where I feel like it doesn't hold your hand as much, and that's where I feel the game starts to gain a lot of charm as well.

I also did my first dungeon experience with the game. It was a pretty excellent one even though two of us did not have clear roles in the group and we just ran with it (I was a DPSy two handed tank and he was a more healing focus two handed tank). We ended up completing the dungeon without too much trouble even though we had a couple of deaths. We were different classes though, he was a Templar and I was a Dragon Knight, and although I had some support abilities I felt I was actually a worse tank than him which is interesting because I was playing the "fighter catch all" as you say. Although, I could have been a better tank than him potentially if I had put more perks into my armor passives.

The idea I'm getting at is that we both felt unique to me. We both took different routes to our characters and we could not have been any more different and I actually thought everyone in the group was the same way, very different. My girlfriend was playing a dual wielding nightblade with light armor that operated more like a mage than a melee fighter, and the last member was a mage that was both split between conjuration and dark magic and was a pretty competent ranged damage dealer. She had to switch to a resto staff for the last boss though to help out in healing.

I don't know how far you got though, but if you got to your capital city and you felt the game didn't open up any then it probably isn't for you, you're correct. Once I started unlocking new skill trees from different guilds and closing anchors randomly and finding public dungeons and quests that were not apparent on my map I was pretty excited. The crafting station was actually under a house that did not even have a quest attached to it or a map icon, we just randomly encountered it, and I could see myself going back there to craft that gear when I had the time.

I don't think it was you specifically that said two hours by the way, it was someone else in the thread, and I personally didn't get to liking the game until my first 20 hour weekend session, and then this last one was much more improved than that one and I ended up spending 25 or 26 hours in it and enjoyed all of them. Sorry if I offended you earlier about your previous post, I couldn't really read it and it was frustrating. You have great points, and I agree with you on MMO design. I think that, actually, Brad McQuaid's new game probably has the most potential to make an MMO that is more like what we all want. Sadly I don't think EverQuest Next is going to do it, but EQNext could honestly be the next World of Warcraft, so who knows. Content generated on the fly, destructible terrain, advanced AI... Brad's MMO could honestly be a relic by the time it comes out in the world that EQNext is going to be in.

I have also played pretty much every MMO that has ever come out, so I know your frustration. I just see a lot of potential in ESO, and I'll probably be disappointed to be perfectly honest. I have 377 hours in Skyrim as of writing this and have been working on another playthrough, so I also understand you wanting the MMO to be a lot more like an Elder Scrolls game as well, but I do think that it has a lot of potential to be a great game.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, I do think that having her there made me want to play the game further than I had in previous beta tests. I think I only have about 60 hours in the game, both times that I got past the first two newbie areas I got to about level 15. The experience opens up dramatically and it would be easy to miss a whole lot, and that's where I feel like it doesn't hold your hand as much, and that's where I feel the game starts to gain a lot of charm as well.

I also did my first dungeon experience with the game. It was a pretty excellent one even though two of us did not have clear roles in the group and we just ran with it (I was a DPSy two handed tank and he was a more healing focus two handed tank). We ended up completing the dungeon without too much trouble even though we had a couple of deaths. We were different classes though, he was a Templar and I was a Dragon Knight, and although I had some support abilities I felt I was actually a worse tank than him which is interesting because I was playing the "fighter catch all" as you say. Although, I could have been a better tank than him potentially if I had put more perks into my armor passives.

The idea I'm getting at is that we both felt unique to me. We both took different routes to our characters and we could not have been any more different and I actually thought everyone in the group was the same way, very different. My girlfriend was playing a dual wielding nightblade with light armor that operated more like a mage than a melee fighter, and the last member was a mage that was both split between conjuration and dark magic and was a pretty competent ranged damage dealer. She had to switch to a resto staff for the last boss though to help out in healing.

I don't know how far you got though, but if you got to your capital city and you felt the game didn't open up any then it probably isn't for you, you're correct. Once I started unlocking new skill trees from different guilds and closing anchors randomly and finding public dungeons and quests that were not apparent on my map I was pretty excited. The crafting station was actually under a house that did not even have a quest attached to it or a map icon, we just randomly encountered it, and I could see myself going back there to craft that gear when I had the time.

But you see, the problem is anytime a game has a narrative to it as a MMO, it is offering a very specific experience. Even when it branches out, I didn't feel it branched out much more than WoW does. You reach Orgrimmar, and then you can go to a wide range of different locations to explore/level and progress. The number of places you could go became so difficult to know (due to the number), they ended up putting in (during cataclysm) a board that would tell you what areas are more or less appropriate for your level/range to help guide people through the options they have. But regardless of this, you're being fed a narrative that isn't yours.

That's why EQ, DAoC, and SWG are games I point to repeatedly here, as they are games that do not offer you a narrative. You make your story. You make your journey. You make your quests. You make your adventure. Your epic is your own.

So I play WoW, I play ESO, I play TSW, and everything I do, everyone has walked the same path. Some may not have explored it as much, delved into the lore as much, but that's the "WoW" narrative that you're delivered. That bothers me tremendously.

Games like EQ, DAoC, SWG, you're dropped into a huge world, and... now what? Who are you? Are you a great hero that will rise to kill Innoruuk? Are you someone who will one day kill your own god to rip his eye out? Are you an imperial or a rebel? Are you righteous or evil? These are things you decide for yourself when your character is not predetermined or treated in a specific way by a game narrative. When you drop into World of Warcraft, however, you're a peon-esque dude, you get a few quests, you work your way up into being the great hero, and now everyone even raids to kill the ultimate boss of the game. But that's not your narrative. That's the game's narrative. You are being told who you are. Why the heck would the Horde ever accept my character given the way I want my character to be? In EverQuest, guards will hate me if I act the way I want to act. In WoW, you're not getting your guards to hate you, ever.

It's just bothersome, because MMOs have succumbed to trying to deliver a game story, rather than putting the story out there, and letting you explore it. That's what MMOs were about. Story isn't shoved in your face in life. Story is nebulous, it's floating out there, it's in the background. You need to seek it out and find it. Puzzle it.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...and I personally didn't get to liking the game until my first 20 hour weekend session, and then this last one was much more improved than that one and I ended up spending 25 or 26 hours in it and enjoyed all of them.

Most games are over by 20 hours in. If it takes a game 20 hours to get good, I have issues. After the 5th to 6th hour of the game being not-good, I get pissed because I am wasting time. But for the sake of giving the game a fair shot, and MMOs are time intensive, I keep going. But my attitude is bad. Nothing changed, and it just felt increasingly more just like what leveling a toon in WoW is like.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry if I offended you earlier about your previous post, I couldn't really read it and it was frustrating.

Like I said earlier, I am not emotionally invested. This is a conversation over the internet. I wasn't offended. I made a mistake, and I corrected it. There's nothing personal or offensive about correcting an error. If an academic finds someone pointing out their errors as offensive, they are more likely to get eaten alive, since pretty much everything we do is pointing out other people's errors.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have great points, and I agree with you on MMO design. I think that, actually, Brad McQuaid's new game probably has the most potential to make an MMO that is more like what we all want. Sadly I don't think EverQuest Next is going to do it, but EQNext could honestly be the next World of Warcraft, so who knows. Content generated on the fly, destructible terrain, advanced AI... Brad's MMO could honestly be a relic by the time it comes out in the world that EQNext is going to be in.

EverQuest Next is one that I approach with skepticism as SoE has burned all of us too many times. However, the idea of a truly fully voxel created world, dynamically adjusting AI, and a new style of game play all sounds good. I am most likely going to buy it just for the sake of supporting an innovative game design to hopefully help encourage other game creators to break out of the WoW Paradigm.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have also played pretty much every MMO that has ever come out, so I know your frustration. I just see a lot of potential in ESO, and I'll probably be disappointed to be perfectly honest. I have 377 hours in Skyrim as of writing this and have been working on another playthrough, so I also understand you wanting the MMO to be a lot more like an Elder Scrolls game as well, but I do think that it has a lot of potential to be a great game.

It has potential, but they have to change some very fundamental issues. When Bethesda goes for a talent based progression system for their characters, and their level system of quest grinding, it jabs at the fundamental TES experience. Now, if there was no alternative, I would accept it, and say "Well, they did what they could.", but the fact that a game like SWG has been out, and has shown a progression system that can give a fundamentally TES experience in a MMO setting... And yet they do not use it, instead favoring a bland standard progression system, I am bothered. It is lazy in my eyes. Regardless of if you agree with me or disagree with me about ESO, I don't think anyone can say that the current system in ESO is more TES like than would be a SWG + Skyrim style progression system. It would make the game feel more like TES, enough that I would enjoy the play style of the game enough to look past the game play being a quest grind. I could ignore the quest grind if I enjoyed the play style enough. I did with WoW, as I loved playing a Protection Warrior so much, it was simply fun, I could ignore hating quest structures. But when they completely revamped the class, I ended up quitting.

I am rambling now, so I am cutting myself off before getting onto a rant of my hatred for Blizzard and Ghostcrawler for what they did to Protection Warrior.

[Shaakglith12194]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's just bothersome, because MMOs have succumbed to trying to deliver a game story, rather than putting the story out there, and letting you explore it. That's what MMOs were about. Story isn't shoved in your face in life. Story is nebulous, it's floating out there, it's in the background. You need to seek it out and find it. Puzzle it.

I think you hit the nail on the head in a lot of areas of your posts in this discussion. This one in particular resonated with me, because it seems like aside from WoW, the REALLY successful MMOs (Eve Online, EQ1, EQ2, SWG) put the story out there as background and let you figure out your own story. WoW and many games like it pretty much made you a spectator to the parade that was the story. You might be the one tanking Ragnaros today, but there was nothing special about your doing it. Lots of other people had done and would do the same thing, so ultimately, you could be powerful but you were insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The story would proceed as if you were never there.

On Live EQ, you could be famous, adding to the story by actually making the player's personal story and actions real in a meaningful way. There were legends in the old days and you could look at those people and say, "I want to be a legend like that dude." Hell, there are a few well known people on this server, though I think the legendary status isn't quite the same as it was on live, since the game is completely explored. You can go to freaking wikipedia and read about the sleeper being killed on RZ, is how real the player's actions could be. In Eve Online there are plenty of dudes who are famous. The player's actions ARE the story in that game. I have an issue of Game Informer that has a full-page interview with a guy who accidentally started one of the largest battles in the game's history. In EQ2 on Nagafen (back before the Odus expansion), there were dudes so badass at their class that when you saw them in the world, you knew you were probably going to die. They were good and they had a reputation for kicking ass. EQ2 isn't maybe the best example, but the point stands. Who is famous on WoW? Leroy Jenkins or the dudes that pvped that in-game funeral. They're famous because they made stupid videos. If the Leroy Jenkins video had never been made, nobody on that server would have even heard about that idiot. If the funeral pvp video had never been made, nobody outside of maybe half a dozen guilds would have known about it.

I've played quite a few hours of TESO beta and I'm very sad at what they've done to the TES franchise. Keep in mind, though, that it's not Bethesda working on this game. I think they're being consulted or have some hand/input into its development, but the studio is Zenimax Online. All they had to do was make Elder Scrolls 6 and add co-op. I'd pay $15 a month for THAT game if they just added some new stuff every few months.

It seems that the only MMOs worth playing are ones with new types of gameplay. Maybe Brad's new MMO will be good. I sure hope so. TESO isn't it for me, maybe I'll try it around this upcoming Thanksgiving when it's f2p. EQN looks like it's going to be crap. I've heard it's going to be 40 classes of dps with world destruction that lasts 5 minutes before it regenerates. I'll give it a try, setting the bar low so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. There's supposed to be a Warhammer 40k game coming out in the next couple years which sounds like it's going to be lots of fun.

Btw, am I the only one that thinks having only 6 abilities on your loadout is ridiculous? Hell, look at a level 60 warrior in EverQuest and between basic abilities, weapon procs, and clickies, they have more abilities available during combat than that! They don't even get spells, ffs!

[Auvdar]

Slight derail, but I swear this is the only forum I have seen that has people who give this game positive reviews.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Auvdar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Slight derail, but I swear this is the only forum I have seen that has people who give this game positive reviews.

Although I am avidly opposed to the game on many grounds, I will say that this likely has to do with the fact that people are more often vocal about negative responses to things than positive responses. People will more often go out of their way to say something sucks, than to say something was great.

However, what does tend to motivate people to write positive reviews is when something they like is framed in a negative light, in which case, it is time to stand up and defend it. In this case ,the article is calling ESO a disaster, and so those that like the game will stand up to defend it more often than they would if this was about ESO generally.

That's just a theory. May be totally off. I have no way of truly testing it, only suggesting it.