Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[Borador]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No he was right, that's in regards to hate generation. It actually didn't do that much damage in mainhand (Just slightly more than an epic or jade mace)

right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

[cs616]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.

[Nirgon]

If hate generated from swings needs to be brought up (methinks this is the case), it'd be hard to find a hard and fast formula to just directly implement given the current system(?).

I'd propose giving a warrior 2 lammies and testing spell damage threat gain against it.

Something does need to be done regarding the "proc or bust" warrior choices here. We can agree the consensus is that unless you're twinking a warrior you are having trouble here I think, or, you are certainly not as useful a tank as you should be.

As far as "unfounded" claims. Do realize I played during this era and want to see a more classic server, so I offer what I remember. Not everything is logged in patch notes or on archived web pages. I also realize changes take a community effort, especially filling in the gaps and helping each other remember or just piece things together.

I'd also like to think many of you registered forum accounts to discuss classic EverQuest, but hey, who knows.

[cs616]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

[Borador]

Originally Posted by cs616 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.

I believe its in this discussion in reference to low delay weapons and hate generation. The post by splorf talking about DPS (with bonus) is less relevant.

Also, as far as the minimum delay and parses go, I do recall problems with eq log timestamps and parsing not going below 1 second. The real(eq) world damage was in fact higher but the log issue caused some drama.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

The formula for hate generation is more along the lines of ((weapon damage + damage bonus)/delay). That's what he was saying.

The difference in DAMAGE vs epic at level 60 is ~4.5%, (((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay) but that's also about the same damage a jade mace does. It's good, but it's not even close to 40%

[koros]

Originally Posted by cs616 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

[Borador]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The formula for hate generation is more along the lines of ((weapon damage + damage bonus)/delay). That's what he was saying.

The difference in DAMAGE vs epic at level 60 is ~4.5%, (((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay) but that's also about the same damage a jade mace does. It's good, but it's not even close to 40%

Ya, you are correct. My hate damage numbers are getting mixed up. Still it was a broken damage weapon at the time, people weren't running around with epics everywhere.

Also, like Norton I'm mostly going off the classic feel. Ya, you could hold aggro with rusty daggers, play with "better" players, or just rely on price. But, that isn't how it was, auto attacks provided much more than they appear to be.

[cs616]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

That is kind of my whole point though, even now my warrior doesn't have problems holding aggro over drastically better geared rogues, assuming both me and the rogues are playing our classes properly (e.g. warrior using taunt only when aggro is lost, rogue evading).

I've already admitted that it is quite likely that the aggro calculations on this server aren't perfect, but my concern with this thread is going too far in the opposite direction. A skilled warrior grouped with unskilled dps should not be able to hold aggro. By that I mean, that if a rogue, monk, wizard, mage, etc wants to pull aggro off a warrior, they should be able to almost 100% of the time. However, a skilled warrior with knowledgeable dps currently has no problem holding aggro. To me that seems like a situation where trying to "fix" it is only going to cause more problems. A warrior using lammys absolutely should not be able to hold aggro over an epic rogue unless that rogue is evading.

All I ask is that before we start asking for changes based on anecdotal evidence, which is all I've really seen in this thread, lets make sure those changes are actually needed and not just perceived to be needed because some people are bad at this game.

Edit - not implying anyone in particular in this thread is "bad at this game", just that people who don't understand mechanics are quick to assume something is wrong with the game before questioning whether they're doing something wrong.

[big mouth chew]

warriors wield what they wanna