Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[Heebo]

Max damage sitting vs a PC works fine on blue but definitely broken vs NPCs.

[big mouth chew]

this thread gettin a lil off track but i still like it

while we're talking about anything unclassic lets talk about UIs plz

[Enygma]

It makes sense what Vayder and Koros have chimed in here regarding Lammies. I forget the expansion was only out for 9 or so months before Velious was released and warriors were almost immediately upgrading to clubs of ice ocean and frostbringer etc.

[Nirgon]

This has all the Nilbog benefits of a bug thread, with all the discussion benefits of not yelling at me for posting and debating in bugs.

It even has a PvP kill shot.

Liking this thread on Facebook.

[cs616]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.

[Borador]

Originally Posted by cs616 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.

I believe its in this discussion in reference to low delay weapons and hate generation. The post by splorf talking about DPS (with bonus) is less relevant.

Also, as far as the minimum delay and parses go, I do recall problems with eq log timestamps and parsing not going below 1 second. The real(eq) world damage was in fact higher but the log issue caused some drama.

[Nirgon]

If hate generated from swings needs to be brought up (methinks this is the case), it'd be hard to find a hard and fast formula to just directly implement given the current system(?).

I'd propose giving a warrior 2 lammies and testing spell damage threat gain against it.

Something does need to be done regarding the "proc or bust" warrior choices here. We can agree the consensus is that unless you're twinking a warrior you are having trouble here I think, or, you are certainly not as useful a tank as you should be.

As far as "unfounded" claims. Do realize I played during this era and want to see a more classic server, so I offer what I remember. Not everything is logged in patch notes or on archived web pages. I also realize changes take a community effort, especially filling in the gaps and helping each other remember or just piece things together.

I'd also like to think many of you registered forum accounts to discuss classic EverQuest, but hey, who knows.

[cs616]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

[koros]

Originally Posted by cs616 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

[cs616]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

That is kind of my whole point though, even now my warrior doesn't have problems holding aggro over drastically better geared rogues, assuming both me and the rogues are playing our classes properly (e.g. warrior using taunt only when aggro is lost, rogue evading).

I've already admitted that it is quite likely that the aggro calculations on this server aren't perfect, but my concern with this thread is going too far in the opposite direction. A skilled warrior grouped with unskilled dps should not be able to hold aggro. By that I mean, that if a rogue, monk, wizard, mage, etc wants to pull aggro off a warrior, they should be able to almost 100% of the time. However, a skilled warrior with knowledgeable dps currently has no problem holding aggro. To me that seems like a situation where trying to "fix" it is only going to cause more problems. A warrior using lammys absolutely should not be able to hold aggro over an epic rogue unless that rogue is evading.

All I ask is that before we start asking for changes based on anecdotal evidence, which is all I've really seen in this thread, lets make sure those changes are actually needed and not just perceived to be needed because some people are bad at this game.

Edit - not implying anyone in particular in this thread is "bad at this game", just that people who don't understand mechanics are quick to assume something is wrong with the game before questioning whether they're doing something wrong.