Is the raid scene really that bad?

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are missing the Ragefire agreement. But then TMO's rank and file decided not to abide by an agreement their leadership agreed to and helped establish:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But once that drama settled down and the Ragefire agreement had a few cycles in, it was the best agreement this server has ever reached. The next closest thing would be the Sky rotation.

Zeelot is rank and file?

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Zeelot is rank and file?

Is Zeelot one of those TMO sitting at RF? I don't know what alts he may have (access to). Zeelot delegated Xeli the task of establishing and agreeing to that rotation, did Xeli not inform her members in that screenshot about the rotation?

[Medowin]

Originally Posted by deneauth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point I was trying to get across before is haven't we as a community of players morphed the raid scene to be what it is now? The developers gave us a set of rules which we choose to follow or not. When the rules are broken and the guilty are discovered punishments are administered whether they are just or not. The developers have given us a classic experience and we as a community have molded the raid scene into what it is now which as Rogean himself has pointed out is very classic. I am okay with the way things are now because just like on live I am a casual player, I have seen more endgame content on this server than I ever did on live, but if leadership from raid level guilds got together and came up with a plan, then implemented it, things could be different we do have the power to do so as a community! Its what I choose to believe and I truly feel it can be done.

Is one guild controlling and monopolizing all of end-game content in the entire game really the classic experience?


Something tells me no.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Brut [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not really, the rules have only changed as per dev whims from server's early days all the way to what it is now. There was a rotation early on, then there wasn't, then variance was added, then there were rules about 15 men sitting on spawn points camping dragons shouting to tell the other raid they're not afk, then there wasnt that, then there was frapsquest and guild suspensions, slight alterations to rules like not pulling inny to zoneline, then those got turned around, then there were poopsocks for end of window mobs, then there were extended windows to rid the poopsocks, yada yada yada. Pretty much all of these consist of playerbase stretching every new rule as far as they could (ie. the 15man sockfests was the ridiculous answer to 2-4day random mob windows) until GMs would step in to change things.

The thing is this server's guild leaderships dont really ever sit down and think "wow this is stupid" and fix the idiocy on their own. They keep the stupidity going until one of them gives up and the other can go on to farm everything.

Only instance I can recall where the top guilds got together and resolved anything on their own was a brief trak/VP rotation somewhere along the line. Unless I've missed some behind the scenes details and a GM forced them to do so.

The absolute only reason there hasn't been a solution to the endgame is because TMO does not give a fuck. TMO's attitude is that if someone wants a piece of the pie then they can attempt to take it. That was clear at the guild leadership summit. They didn't even bother to send a rep that could actually commit to a decision. Then when socking turned into a /rand for the chance to engage first it was suddenly overruled when TMO lost the first handful of rolls.

The devs chose this ruleset and TMO adapted. It will always be like this until the devs make a change or until the server bands together or something but realistically the only people that care enough to dump hundreds of hours a week into tracking and mobilizing at every single hour of the day is TMO. I'm not sure if that shows how awesome they are or if it's kinda sad.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The absolute only reason there hasn't been a solution to the endgame is because TMO does not give a fuck. TMO's attitude is that if someone wants a piece of the pie then they can attempt to take it. That was clear at the guild leadership summit. They didn't even bother to send a rep that could actually commit to a decision. Then when socking turned into a /rand for the chance to engage first it was suddenly overruled when TMO lost the first handful of rolls.

The devs chose this ruleset and TMO adapted. It will always be like this until the devs make a change or until the server bands together or something but realistically the only people that care enough to dump hundreds of hours a week into tracking and mobilizing at every single hour of the day is TMO. I'm not sure if that shows how awesome they are or if it's kinda sad.

TMO shouldn't give a fuck. Shame IB left the server, if they hadn't, none of you would even be here commenting about changes to the raid scene. You guys just sat quietly farming planar gear and doing 4 islands of sky up until IB left and VD disbanded.

I tried several times to get other guilds to join in the raid scene, back before IB left, and every time it was met with "OH hell yea, that sounds awesome" and those guilds did absolutely nothing to actually join in.

It's quite clear that none of the other guilds want to put any effort into actually getting targets. You simply want to show up to a predetermined time to take out a predetermined target and acquire loot.

You all should be thanking TMO that IB left so you could finally openly bitch and moan about the raid scene and how only one guild is dominating it. If it wasn't for TMO, you'd still be happy farming planar alt gear.

[quido]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then when socking turned into a /rand for the chance to engage first it was suddenly overruled when TMO lost the first handful of rolls..

The /random at a certain point in the window thing was Sirken's suggestion that everyone agreed to try out for a week. It was dumb as hell, but it's not like it was prematurely abandoned simply because BDA showed up for some freebies.

[zanderklocke]

Maybe I seem jaded, but I can't take any of the posts that say "We can change if the guilds work together!" seriously.

Top raiding guild does not care about the raid scene changing from what it is. There is no benefit for them to share mobs with the rest of the server. Maybe they're greedy, but it's a fricken computer game. They aren't out waving steak dinners in front of homeless people; it is a game.

Staff does not care about the raid scene changing from what it is. Maybe when they are done with creating content, they will take more interest in player raid change ideas on the server, but I'm not betting on it. The goal of the project is to create a Classic EverQuest server, not provide the highest possible fun experience for players. Hence a hands off approach on dealing with the players unless someone is exploiting or doing something detrimental to the box. I mean they invented non-classic features such as variance and FTE shouts to be able to be more hands off.

With the understanding that the staff's primary goal is to "create" and not "regulate" a server and that the top guild who controls the raid content is not interested in change in the raid scene, everyone should realize that things are not changing on this server in terms of things like enforced rotations, etc. Until Zeelot gives the big stamp of approval on some server wide raid change or some guild gains and never loses momentum while poaching raid targets away (right...ha), we are playing with the same status quo.

While this is a emulated server, the player base as a majority has chosen to be a lot more hardcore than the majority that was on live, and I suppose that's just the type of diehard players a 14 year old game attracts or the effect of Kunark being out longer than both Kunark and Velious existed on live.

Maybe we can reassess when Velious is out for six months and see if anything has changed.

[timhutton]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I seem jaded, but I can't take any of the posts that say "We can change if the guilds work together!" seriously.

Top raiding guild does not care about the raid scene changing from what it is. There is no benefit for them to share mobs with the rest of the server. Maybe they're greedy, but it's a fricken computer game. They aren't out waving steak dinners in front of homeless people; it is a game.

Staff does not care about the raid scene changing from what it is. Maybe when they are done with creating content, they will take more interest in player raid change ideas on the server, but I'm not betting on it. The goal of the project is to create a Classic EverQuest server, not provide the highest possible fun experience for players. Hence a hands off approach on dealing with the players unless someone is exploiting or doing something detrimental to the box. I mean they invented non-classic features such as variance and FTE shouts to be able to be more hands off.

With the understanding that the staff's primary goal is to "create" and not "regulate" a server and that the top guild who controls the raid content is not interested in change in the raid scene, everyone should realize that things are not changing on this server in terms of things like enforced rotations, etc. Until Zeelot gives the big stamp of approval on some server wide raid change or some guild gains and never loses momentum while poaching raid targets away (right...ha), we are playing with the same status quo.

While this is a emulated server, the player base as a majority has chosen to be a lot more hardcore than the majority that was on live, and I suppose that's just the type of diehard players a 14 year old game attracts or the effect of Kunark being out longer than both Kunark and Velious existed on live.

Maybe we can reassess when Velious is out for six months and see if anything has changed.

That pretty much hightlights all of the issues nicely. I'm glad we could come together as a community and have this discussion.

See all of you in a couple of days when the next 30 page thread concerning the raid scene and how messed up it is shows itself.

In the meantime, enjoy the bantering and bickering this thread is sure to bring over the next 15+ pages after the OP asked a simple question!

P.S. OP: if this thread or any of the others involving this topic still haven't answered your question feel free to PM myself or a more knowledgable player immediately! thanks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Ezrick]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe I seem jaded, but I can't take any of the posts that say "We can change if the guilds work together!" seriously.

You can't, it won't happen. There are way too many people/guilds wanting to do this content (read get the loot for their paper-doll).

It can't be 'fixed'. We can't introduce Velious two years ago. We can't take back the decade of analysis of EverQuest and the knowledge of every single item and every single quest.

In classic times raid strategies were guarded, yes they leaked out eventually, but it took the intrepid. You went after that boss night after night. You died repeatedly, you learned, and maybe, just maybe you triumphed.

There is no "raiding scene" here. Only a pharming scene. You read how-to's on everything and consider yourselves elite players because you can run fastest to a mob.

Raiding on P99 is PvP. It's not classic. We all remember Gornaire running around DL for weeks. Some of you remember seeing guilds try to kill her. Some fewer of us remember trying it in person (and dying, and dying until we got it right.) She lived 19 minutes Saturday. She fell to the guild that got there first, the one that got the people in the zone and to her the fastest. It's just PvP organizational skills, it has nothing to do with gaming skills.

Raiding is NOT reading a Wiki and killing a mob that's been killed a thousand times before and executing a well-known strategy freely available to all. You are just lewt pharming because you weren't good enough (or old enough, or both) back in the day.


Ezrick Blackpriest
<Black Company>
Tarew Marr 1999-2002

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Ezrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't, it won't happen. There are way too many people/guilds wanting to do this content (read get the loot for their paper-doll).

It can't be 'fixed'. We can't introduce Velious two years ago. We can't take back the decade of analysis of EverQuest and the knowledge of every single item and every single quest.

In classic times raid strategies were guarded, yes they leaked out eventually, but it took the intrepid. You went after that boss night after night. You died repeatedly, you learned, and maybe, just maybe you triumphed.

There is no "raiding scene" here. Only a pharming scene. You read how-to's on everything and consider yourselves elite players because you can run fastest to a mob.

Raiding on P99 is PvP. It's not classic. We all remember Gornaire running around DL for weeks. Some of you remember seeing guilds try to kill her. Some fewer of us remember trying it in person (and dying, and dying until we got it right.) She lived 19 minutes Saturday. She fell to the guild that got there first, the one that got the people in the zone and to her the fastest. It's just PvP organizational skills, it has nothing to do with gaming skills.

Raiding is NOT reading a Wiki and killing a mob that's been killed a thousand times before and executing a well-known strategy freely available to all. You are just lewt pharming because you weren't good enough (or old enough, or both) back in the day.


Ezrick Blackpriest
<Black Company>
Tarew Marr 1999-2002

you nailed it