In Defense of the Paladin

[Splorf22]

/GU Combined: Elementalbone skeleton in 1168s, 99k @85dps --- A sepulcher skeleton 55k @57dps (55.26%) --- Snoogan 41k @35dps (41.15%) --- Save 3k @3dps (2.65%) --- Azzudnam 1k @1dps (0.95%)

First, their dps isn't terrible. I'm not going to call that great, either, but its not THAT bad. Snoogan is a 60 epic paladin with VoG and a RBB (so not even haste capped). In comparison Sakuragi is good for 55 or so (and getting the warrior epic/sky belt is WAY harder than the equivalent paladin gear). Second, a good group is putting out 200+ dps. Adding a warrior is good for a 10% dps boost - nontrivial, but not make or break either. This was my first outing on a paladin, and already I figured out a ton of stuff to do:

• Buff both the enchanter and shaman with reso/naltron because we had no cleric. +600HP definitely saved both of them at one point or another
• Stun at the end of the slow tick, thus making a 75% slow into an 80-85% slow
• Chainstun so I took 0 damage until the mob was slowed
• Chainstun casters so they didn't get a single spell off
• Heal myself a few times during downtime, although I wasn't really taking much damage. But I think I got about 5 torpors the whole night, making Azz free to DPS
• Hold aggro effortlessly with flash of light, divine might, FD procs, and the L4 stun. I didn't even use the taunt key [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
• Heal the enchanter when he got in trouble
• Stun the enchanter's pet on charm breaks
• Root for a little additional CC every now and then
• DA pull to effortlessly burn off a few harmtouches
• LoH to save the situation every now and again
• 90% Rez (cause we did wipe once when calm wasn't lasting as long as we thought it did)
• Deepwater helm spam on our shaman when we rezzed him through the door

I don't think we would have done as well with Sakuragi, and that is versus a 60 warrior with the epic, vp offhand, sky haste, and vog/shaman dex. At lower levels with worse gear and worse buffs, the paladin would come out way ahead. I certainly don't regret making a warrior; Paladins are pretty mediocre in raids IMO. But for 3-6 man groups I think they are quite solid.

P.S. We scored the Fluid Hat Trick with one veil, one hoop, and one reaper!

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

/GU Combined: Elementalbone skeleton in 1168s, 99k @85dps --- A sepulcher skeleton 55k @57dps (55.26%) --- Snoogan 41k @35dps (41.15%) --- Save 3k @3dps (2.65%) --- Azzudnam 1k @1dps (0.95%)

First, their dps isn't terrible. I'm not going to call that great, either, but its not THAT bad. Snoogan is a 60 epic paladin with VoG and a RBB (so not even haste capped). In comparison Sakuragi is good for 55 or so (and getting the warrior epic/sky belt is WAY harder than the equivalent paladin gear). Second, a good group is putting out 200+ dps. Adding a warrior is good for a 10% dps boost - nontrivial, but not make or break either. This was my first outing on a paladin, and already I figured out a ton of stuff to do:

• Buff both the enchanter and shaman with reso/naltron because we had no cleric. +600HP definitely saved both of them at one point or another
• Stun at the end of the slow tick, thus making a 75% slow into an 80-85% slow
• Chainstun so I took 0 damage until the mob was slowed
• Chainstun casters so they didn't get a single spell off
• Heal myself a few times during downtime, although I wasn't really taking much damage. But I think I got about 5 torpors the whole night, making Azz free to DPS
• Hold aggro effortlessly with flash of light, divine might, FD procs, and the L4 stun. I didn't even use the taunt key [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
• Heal the enchanter when he got in trouble
• Stun the enchanter's pet on charm breaks
• Root for a little additional CC every now and then
• DA pull to effortlessly burn off a few harmtouches
• LoH to save the situation every now and again
• 90% Rez (cause we did wipe once when calm wasn't lasting as long as we thought it did)
• Deepwater helm spam on our shaman when we rezzed him through the door

I don't think we would have done as well with Sakuragi, and that is versus a 60 warrior with the epic, vp offhand, sky haste, and vog/shaman dex. At lower levels with worse gear and worse buffs, the paladin would come out way ahead. I certainly don't regret making a warrior; Paladins are pretty mediocre in raids IMO. But for 3-6 man groups I think they are quite solid.

P.S. We scored the Fluid Hat Trick with one veil, one hoop, and one reaper!

in have healed enough times ur stinki war in vp to know u dont die unless u run oor like last time with nexona [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

sure that isnt torpor or ch still its a 500ish heal and i still have 3k mana in regular tank gear[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[heals4reals]

Im very excited to play a paladin

[Adolphus]

I'll keep this simple.

There's nothing wrong with Paladin in theory. There is something terribly wrong with the AC mechanic on Project 1999. Paladin's rely heavily on AC to be viable as a tank.

I had a Paladin in live. I rolled a Paladin here. It's not the same. Paladin's are incredibly weak relative to live. AC is just not something that the developers here have been able to figure out or address yet. If you doubt it, try doing stress tests with high AC vs zero AC on any of your toons. You'll be surprised to see the results if you weren't already aware.

Maybe it'll be (more)* viable in the future as a tank!


*Edited text

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Adolphus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll keep this simple.

There's nothing wrong with Paladin in theory. There is something terribly wrong with the AC mechanic on Project 1999. Paladin's rely heavily on AC to be viable as a tank.

I had a Paladin in live. I rolled a Paladin here. It's not the same. Paladin's are incredibly weak relative to live. AC is just not something that the developers here have been able to figure out or address yet. If you doubt it, try doing stress tests with high AC vs zero AC on any of your toons. You'll be surprised to see the results if you weren't already aware.

Maybe it'll be viable in the future!

AC is a mechanism that affects every class in the game and not just Paladins. Noone's pointing at you and saying "Roflmao AC is broken, now you're useless".

We survive pretty much like everyone else does.
Confirmed still viable.

[Adolphus]

Originally Posted by Lorraine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AC is a mechanism that affects every class in the game and not just Paladins. Noone's pointing at you and saying "Roflmao AC is broken, now you're useless".

We survive pretty much like everyone else does.
Confirmed still viable.

I mentioned that AC being broken affects every class in the above post - but I understand the confusion here.

Allow me to clarify: first, I never mocked, insulted or laughed at the idea that Paladin is severely damaged by the broken mechanic. And I don't think Paladin is useless by any means. Nor do I think that people should not play Paladin due to a game mechanic being broken. Rather, people should play the class they enjoy most regardless of mechanics and penalties. Implying it wasn't "viable" was overreaching on my part. It can still be viable as a tank.

That being said, approaching the class with a good attitude does not excuse the glaring, non-classic issue that has plagued it since the beginning of the server. AC being broken affects Paladins more than any other class, because AC is the Paladin's primary stat for tanking. The Paladin doesn't have the HP of a warrior and/or the Disc's. It doesn't mean that Paladin's can't tank - but it does mean they are at a significant disadvantage relative to their counterparts at this time.

I am rooting for Paladin's here - I love the class. I played one in live. But if we choose to blissfully ignore and/or criticize those who point out this non-classic flaw with AC that adversely affects Paladin's, then I feel we're doing a disservice to the potential of the class. It's not to dissuade people from playing the class that I bring this up - it's just telling a truth about the state of the class that most people aren't aware of. Some people may appreciate knowing this kind of thing prior to rolling a Paladin on this server. I certainly would have appreciated it.

[Estolcles]

I played a Pally on Live, and play a Pally on here, and I can tell you, it's a challenge to play, but totally worth it. That is, if you like challenges.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can spam DW helm a shaman, necro or someone with a mana robe.

You can spam stun (dw bracer) a caster mob that an enchanter pet is fighting (tash helps tons here, keeps pet from getting slowed too... which RUINS enchanter charm killing).

You can lay hands someone with 4-6 mobs on them and not die in areas you are xping (personally have lay hands'd an unconscious enchanter who fucked up a crypt pull here).

Pacify single pulling is no joke, esp when invis pulling is ever fixed. You can cast pacify line through walls.

Your deep water pants give you an str buff for yourself and the group (doesn't stack with shaman line), but is still pretty good.

Early levels outdoors you can blind a mob to "fear cc" it.

GREAT for healing an enchanter while they are trying to get everything mezzed. Ensures any early breaks (they don't break enough here imo) will result in pally, not healer aggro.

You have root for CC, if you're pro you can be a straight boss with this if you reroot mobs after 2 or so melee rounds and then each swing in between on the off targets.

You can snap aggro with your root as long as you stand closest.

If you're not the puller start with dw bracer -> divine might -> dw bracer again -> regular casted low lvl stun for a huge aggro grab that usually sees a mob down to 60-70% hp.

If your bash misses you have regular stun (don't use bash to dps unless melee mob.. really.. save it).

90% res when you're all leveled up isn't something most people would turn down.

Your resist line is handy as fuk to save others the annoyance (shamans/clerics in groups) of having to cast them. You don't get all of them, but, imagine if an SK got them.. yeah.. useful.

Your dps sucks until you get a primal, but still, compared to the other classes, it sucks. That's not your job though.

Roll a half elf tunare relgion for ezpz Nature's Defender in Velious (really only takes a group, yes I'm aware of the hate 2.0 part you could convince a guild to tag along I'm sure).

Sense the dead, situationally useful for finding necro/SK pals in zones or finding certain nameds.. situational and minor.

Yaulp: I don't think stamina loss works correctly here(?) but it was dope in live. Can't hate on it for blocking dispels/aoe's with dispel components if you're just starting or are a lazy scumbag. 40str does mighty fine to make up for racial disadvantage, atk speaks with itself.

Really just having root, pacify and being able to lock down casters is OP as shit imo. Velious really makes them strong, trust me. Just don't be tanking any raid mobs with em :P.

good post by you both, so important the correct roles are followed for certain situations

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[Clark]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

/GU Combined: Elementalbone skeleton in 1168s, 99k @85dps --- A sepulcher skeleton 55k @57dps (55.26%) --- Snoogan 41k @35dps (41.15%) --- Save 3k @3dps (2.65%) --- Azzudnam 1k @1dps (0.95%)

First, their dps isn't terrible. I'm not going to call that great, either, but its not THAT bad. Snoogan is a 60 epic paladin with VoG and a RBB (so not even haste capped). In comparison Sakuragi is good for 55 or so (and getting the warrior epic/sky belt is WAY harder than the equivalent paladin gear). Second, a good group is putting out 200+ dps. Adding a warrior is good for a 10% dps boost - nontrivial, but not make or break either. This was my first outing on a paladin, and already I figured out a ton of stuff to do:

• Buff both the enchanter and shaman with reso/naltron because we had no cleric. +600HP definitely saved both of them at one point or another
• Stun at the end of the slow tick, thus making a 75% slow into an 80-85% slow
• Chainstun so I took 0 damage until the mob was slowed
• Chainstun casters so they didn't get a single spell off
• Heal myself a few times during downtime, although I wasn't really taking much damage. But I think I got about 5 torpors the whole night, making Azz free to DPS
• Hold aggro effortlessly with flash of light, divine might, FD procs, and the L4 stun. I didn't even use the taunt key [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
• Heal the enchanter when he got in trouble
• Stun the enchanter's pet on charm breaks
• Root for a little additional CC every now and then
• DA pull to effortlessly burn off a few harmtouches
• LoH to save the situation every now and again
• 90% Rez (cause we did wipe once when calm wasn't lasting as long as we thought it did)
• Deepwater helm spam on our shaman when we rezzed him through the door

I don't think we would have done as well with Sakuragi, and that is versus a 60 warrior with the epic, vp offhand, sky haste, and vog/shaman dex. At lower levels with worse gear and worse buffs, the paladin would come out way ahead. I certainly don't regret making a warrior; Paladins are pretty mediocre in raids IMO. But for 3-6 man groups I think they are quite solid.

P.S. We scored the Fluid Hat Trick with one veil, one hoop, and one reaper!

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Adolphus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mentioned that AC being broken affects every class in the above post - but I understand the confusion here.

Allow me to clarify: first, I never mocked, insulted or laughed at the idea that Paladin is severely damaged by the broken mechanic. And I don't think Paladin is useless by any means. Nor do I think that people should not play Paladin due to a game mechanic being broken. Rather, people should play the class they enjoy most regardless of mechanics and penalties. Implying it wasn't "viable" was overreaching on my part. It can still be viable as a tank.

That being said, approaching the class with a good attitude does not excuse the glaring, non-classic issue that has plagued it since the beginning of the server. AC being broken affects Paladins more than any other class, because AC is the Paladin's primary stat for tanking. The Paladin doesn't have the HP of a warrior and/or the Disc's. It doesn't mean that Paladin's can't tank - but it does mean they are at a significant disadvantage relative to their counterparts at this time.

I am rooting for Paladin's here - I love the class. I played one in live. But if we choose to blissfully ignore and/or criticize those who point out this non-classic flaw with AC that adversely affects Paladin's, then I feel we're doing a disservice to the potential of the class. It's not to dissuade people from playing the class that I bring this up - it's just telling a truth about the state of the class that most people aren't aware of. Some people may appreciate knowing this kind of thing prior to rolling a Paladin on this server. I certainly would have appreciated it.

AC is a primary stat for every tanking class. Personally I rank HP/Sta higher than AC, as I do resists. We're in the same boat as shadowknights, only they can go large races for some stat boosts and paladins can't.

The thing is that according to peoples personal experiences (mine included) and parses, AC 'appears' not to be working as intended. It is still an important stat and shouldn't be overlooked (imo) but it is not a deciding factor for the Knight class, in a way that we always had and always will have less AC and HP when compared to equally geared warriors. This fact did not change.

Even if AC was 'working as intended', raids wouldn't allow paladins to tank Baazt Zzzt or Hoshkar or any quad hitting raid boss for that matter. Mallets and discs are what's required for them. And even if AC was 'working as intended' paladins wouldn't exactly get 10 group invites the minute they log in. People would still hold prejudice against the class in a way.

You know what else people report 'broken' ? Warrior threat generation. There are way more posts and a LOT of warriors asking what they need to do in order to keep mob attention onto them instead of the support/dps classes. And there were quite a few who swear by the Bible that warriors used to build and hold agro way better and easier back in live than they do here.

What people don't pay a lot of attention to though is this...
a ) In Live, Kunark was around for 8 months. In here it's been close to 3 years. That's a very long time for people to actually sit down and try to analyze things.
b ) In Live, during Kunark, rogues under 30 with Ragebringers or Monks under 30 with CoF/Tstaff were the 0,0001%. In here they are the 95% (exaggerating to make a point).
c ) Midnight Mallets.

We 'win' some, we 'lose' some. Hybrids are still a ton of fun to play, if you stick with them and learn the 'tools of the trade'. Watching a veteran bard or knight (or even ranger) go to 'work' is a thing of beauty. Rare as hell though.