EQNext Discussion

[liveitup1216]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

I agree, I was responding to Tolkien saying removing the roles kills the system.

I'll agree the game hinges on whether or not this AI is what it says it is, but thats the only issue I foresee with the game. To say they're just lying or that it flat out won't work is just lazy.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

My greatest concern is that by removing classes from the game you would also lose a lot of character from the toon, especially when you can respec on the fly into something totally different.

From an RP point of view, respec'ing on the fly makes no sense to me. You lose all identification with who you are in the world if you can just become something different in an instant. Getting to know other players will be very difficult imo.

I guess if the game play is rich enough you will get to know someone for how they play instead of what they play, but I'm skeptical.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both". This is just not possible, as I've pointed out, and as they will discover when they try to actually build what they are currently painting in the sky with broad strokes of hyperbole.

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both".

Huh? Both of what?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Huh? Both of what?

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

Everything I'm saying is replying to the substance of your own quote! Roles, and no roles - the subject of my first reply.

Anyway, way too many of my sig banners in this thread already.

[Ellouelle]

IDK: my opinion on the removal of roles is that it's about damn time.

The only difference between tanking and melee dps is which side of the mob you stand on. In terms of gameplay, you're basically just a melee dps who gets attacked, and the only thing that this really affects is what stats you choose to focus on when building your character. The last time aggro management was part of tank gameplay in any mmo ever pretty much WAS classic eq. Not the case anymore in any mmo since--shit, in wow, tanks literally do as much as or more dps than actual dps.

healing on the other hand was a unique role and to some degree i understand people who lament its' loss as a dedicated role but it's not as though support isn't a part ofthings anymore. It just doesn't consist of sitting around doing nothing waiting for someone to take damage while you stare at health bars.

[liveitup1216]

I've been in a session for over a year now at level 8 with no healer at all. We do have a paladin and a fighter though, 3.5 btw.