40 day raid ban

[loramin]

I'm still buzzing off the fact that this is an actual helpful discussion in RnF! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Check12345 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

from his spawn point to the chosen kill spot, which currently is the entrance for ToV.

So there's nowhere else you could choose to kill the mob in all of ToV? Because if there was, you could guarantee you don't train the entrance by killing at that spot instead (even if it might be less harder/competitive to do that) ... right?

And then regardless of the above, do the rules really say "if you make a mistake doing this pull (whether you had to pull that way or not) you get suspended?" My understanding was that you could try and fix things, and you'd only broken the rules if you didn't do that (or kept training people).

I'm very much appreciating your explanation, but I'm still not seeing why A/A guilds have no choice but to get suspended. It still seems like their leaders have agency and can choose actions which would avoid suspensions.

[loramin]

*harder/less competitive

[Argh]

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[Phatez]

There is no place in ToV that you can kill a mob besides entrance that is a safe place to be Incase another mob spawns. If your raid is at exit and LTK spawns you are disqualified. If your raid is at Ikky safe hall and anything in north spawns you are disqualified.

Entrance is the only place you can be to kill mobs in TOV without being disqualified from future pops.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is a hypothetical for you Loramin. Tell me how Anon would respond. Please read and consider.

Both <Anonymous> and <Kittens Who Meow> are in arena and both want to kill Derakor the Vindicator. After some discussion neither guild is willing to back down and whoever pulls it first will likely get that sweet Vindi BP. Now, Kittens pull it first. The engage looks good, but they didn't properly set up rampage damage, and the raid is wiping. Vindi ends up socialing on Anonymous and wipes both guilds. Kittens, being the honorable guild they are, concedes this Vindi, and Anonymous is clear to make a pull. Kittens decided they want to keep farming coldain armor and they do not leave arena. At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

Again, engagement, yay! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But what do I think? Well here's what I don't think: I don't think Rogean and Sirken made rules which make it impossible to raid Vindi when there's a group XPing nearby. Of course, if Anon doesn't take reasonable steps to avoid impacting the XP group (like say they pick a particular kill spot which is convenient over a less convenient one away from the XP group) they could get a suspension, but if they take all reasonable measures to avoid impacting the XP group I'm skeptical that Rogean's/Sirken's rules say they will get a suspension for it.

And even if that is the case, those are the rules, but that doesn't make them impossible to follow! If those really are the rules, Anon could play by the rules by hanging out until the XP group goes away, and risk losing their Vindi. Sounds lame, but then when the roles are reversed Kittens would have to do the same, and the key thing is that Anon would have chosen actions which don't lead to a suspension.

But again, while I'm not a rules lawyer or A/A member, I'm skeptical of the idea that a Kittens (or any other) XP group can make it impossible for another guild to raid Vindi without that raid potentially eating a suspension if anything goes wrong.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Phatez [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no place in ToV that you can kill a mob besides entrance that is a safe place to be Incase another mob spawns. If your raid is at exit and LTK spawns you are disqualified. If your raid is at Ikky safe hall and anything in north spawns you are disqualified.

Entrance is the only place you can be to kill mobs in TOV without being disqualified from future pops.

Ok, so it sounds like three possible options to me:

1) it's impossible to kill the mob anywhere but entrance, it's impossible to never screw up, and a screw up will definitely result in a suspension-causing train, making it impossible to kill that mob without risking a suspension unless no one is at entrance .... or ....

2) it's impossible to kill the mob anywhere but entrance, it's impossible to never screw up, and a screw up will definitely result in a train ... but the rules account for that (because that's the only place anyone can kill the mob) and just ensure that you do your best to minimize trains and take the appropriate steps to remedy them after they happen. As long as you do that, you don't have to fear suspension .... or ....

3) there are other places to kill the mob; yes they're less convenient, yes you'll have to track timers and if something goes wrong you'll have a spawn interrupting your already hard fight ... but none of that is impossible to follow, it just makes things harder (or easier if you break the rules)

Are you saying 1) is true and 2)/3) aren't? And even if #1 is true, don't guilds still have the option of either A) taking a chance at a suspension, or B) waiting until entrance is clear? I doubt this is the case, but my point is don't guild leaders still have a way to avoid suspension, while still getting mobs?

[mefdinkins]

Think of it as... there's a bunch of 'golden rules.' Don't train each other, don't interfere with the other guild. The rules change, sometimes a practice that is okay gets changed with an explicit rule or after a suspension which invoked a unique interpretation of the rule. The game is incredibly complex and parties min/max so sometimes absurd tactics become the regular practice. Microsecond advantages like Alt+Tabbing or WandCorpsePreTargeting become the norm and CSR re-actively make policy adjustments affecting players engaging in these behaviors.

Beyond that, you have to be relatively experienced to understand all the in game mechanics. Both Awakened and AM have practice servers where you can learn how to pull in TOV and test out aggro and other in game mechanics. Despite all this, a player peaking his head around a corner or /Q'ing in the wrong spot can kill a whole raid. People say it's the leaders but it's the level of competition and desire for self preservation that leads to the top raid entities for getting very close to the line and pushing each other towards or over the line at every opportunity. This isn't a game where you can watch an instant replay in slow motion and see exactly everything as it unfolded. Raiders record their pulls, people dissect what happened, question where mobs came from and where they were going - then often make split second decisions on whether a potential violation occurred and how to rectify that violation. This often happens when one guild is actively raiding and the other is actively Sherlock Holmes'ing the evidence to see if a potential violation occurred.

Just this past week I'm sure that Am/Aw engaged in 'negotiations' and discussions over the rules being followed on Lord Feshlak, Vulak, Lady M, and Yelinak. I'm sure there was a few other instances that led to the parties engaging each other saying, "wtf happened" or "are you really going to kill that?" or the famous "comcede" shouts. The stakes are generally pretty high in these scenarios but you do not want to risk being wrong or get taken advantage of.

Many of the rules have been changed/created in an arbitrary manner. I'm not bashing staff, I am an attorney and I believe a lot of rules and laws are arbitrary. The GMs have more important things to deal with and there's not a great working relationship between Aw/Am. The standards for what is right or wrong constantly change. Before, you could resolve an issue by conceding a mob - yet Aw was suspended in an unprecedented ruling for training CSG despite the fact that the mob they interfered with and trained were both conceded. Aftermath was suspended for not tracking CSG's mobs. Do you think AM would have sent one message with a spawn time if they had any inclination their behavior could be interpreted as violating server rules?

If you look at the nature of the in game mechanics and the level of competition. You would see that people with the purest intentions are still very at risk of violating the rules. Aw/Am are smart enough to realize it's better to raid for 30/40 days than kill a single Vulak.

So please recognize that the nature of EQ on P99, the level of competition, the mechanics of the game, the ever adjusting rule set, and the enforcers of the rules then tell me you can't comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by mefdinkins [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So please recognize that the nature of EQ on P99, the level of competition, the mechanics of the game, the ever adjusting rule set, and the enforcers of the rules then tell me you can't comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally.

Amen (to that and the rest of your post). I never meant to imply that the rules were 100% clear, that there was never ambiguity or unexpected GM interpretations, or any of that, but obviously all of that complexity is incredibly relevant.

And I do comprehend how a guild could violate the rules unintentionally. However, if a guild accidentally/unintentionally violates a rule, despite clearly having made attempts to follow all the rules, and that guild hasn't broken any other rules lately, I would be very surprised if they got suspended.

Heck, even with the A/A guilds I don't imagine Rogean and Sirken rubbing their hands like cartoon villains as they watch A/A raid, hoping to find some technicalicatiy to suspend them on. It seems far more likely that their suspensions aren't just the result of a single unintentional action, but rather that action coupled with the guild's larger history.

So again, it comes down to the actions of guild leaders. They can make their best efforts to avoid suspension, and very likely lose some competitions as a result, or they can compete to the bleeding edge and risk suspensions. They still have a choice, and adhering to the rules is still a viable option: you may lose some competitions, but you'll win a whole lot more when your rival is suspended and you aren't.

[mefdinkins]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Heck, even with the A/A guilds I don't imagine Rogean and Sirken rubbing their hands like cartoon villains as they watch A/A raid, hoping to find some technicalicatiy to suspend them on. It seems far more likely that their suspensions aren't just the result of a single unintentional action, but rather that action coupled with the guild's larger history.

So again, it comes down to the actions of guild leaders. They can make their best efforts to avoid suspension, and very likely lose some competitions as a result, or they can compete to the bleeding edge and risk suspensions. They still have a choice, and adhering to the rules is still a viable option: you may lose some competitions, but you'll win a whole lot more when your rival is suspended and you aren't.

Well, I for one have never been a leader or officer in a raiding guild. I will tell you that RNF spin, public opinion, half-truths, and propaganda are pretty common on P99. There's also a lack of transparency and your average player probably doesn't know about all the dealing and communication that goes on behind the scenes. I've seen a lot of players say, "this suspension really sends a message." I never really understand what that message is. Some people say the message is "TMO needs to be off the server" or "Awakened has to change it's leader" or "it's time for a rotation" or "AM+AW have to work out their own beefs instead of bothering the GMs." Whatever the message has been, it's clearly been missed by a large population of P99.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At this point only Kittens and Anonymous are in the zone and Anonymous tries to make a pull. The pull goes bad and trains the Kittens who have already conceded the mob but stuck around.

Now, being there is no other competition in the zone does Anonymous.

A. Concede Vindi and walk away, even though there is no more competition in the zone.
B. Pull Vindi again, because the guild Anonymous trained already conceded and are no longer competing.
C. Offer to group with Kittens and kill the mob.

Genuinely interested in what you realistically think would happen.

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A, B, or C?

I still don't think those are the only options.

If there is literally no way to kill Vindi without significant risk of training Kittens AND the rules say that if you take that chance you risk a suspension, then A). Like I said, if that truly is the case Anon can choose not to risk suspension, wait until the Kittens group goes away, and kill Vindi then. If that happened there'd be a real risk Anon would lose enough people to where we couldn't do Vindi and might lose him ... but that's better than being suspended. If next week our roles are reversed and Kittens does pull through us, well hey they get suspended and on the third week there's no competition for Vindi.

But really I think the answer is to do B), but adhere to the rules and be respectful while doing it. That might mean fighting Vindi somewhere else, or asking the Kittens group to move just before the pull, or whatever. Again I haven't read every last sentence of the raid rules plus the 500-page compendium of rules interpretations and history, but even so I don't buy that Rogean and Sirken intended for an XP group to block a Vindi raid. If that's truly the way the rules are then I'd expect guilds to fuck with each other all over the place by setting up XP groups at inconvenient locations [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]