Instances destroyed EQ

[Yukahwa]

Instances are opposed to the very nature of a MMORPG and represent the degradation that is caused by marketing these games for mass appeal to attract the greatest number of players possible.

All of these easy-mode games are there to maximize their ability to make people feel accomplished without requiring much actual toil from those players. Us EQ freaks like the grind and the fact that hitting level 60 means you went through some gruesomely slow levels.

Other games are just there to make you feel fancy..give you armor with special FX and crazy names and quests you can accomplish in 5 minutes. Way cool.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Demetrium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was absolutely nothing stopping you from leveling in Charasis, Chardok, etc.

Except for, I don't know, keys? faction? transportation?

Velks is the only end-game dungeon that doesn't require you to have to be able to port/gate to leave, doesn't require a key to enter, and/or doesn't kill your faction.

KC is out (rep). SG is out (unreachable). Dok is out (rep). Seb is out (keys/can't leave). HS is out (keys/can't leave/rep).

That's the reason velks was the premier dungeon. Add to that velious loot > kunark loot.

[Atmas]

I think the crappiness of GoD is what ended my playing and as well as for many other TZers. But GoD was also super instanced so yeah...

Instancing really hurt PvP in both EQ and WoW. LDoNs were fun but it was dumb that a person could level almost exclusively now out of harms way. Prior to the LDoN expansion people had to compete for the best xp spots and gear.

As for dungeon finder in WoW, a brilliantly coded tool wasted on a horrible player base. Most of the problems in WoW stem from the fact that the game caters to ease of play and solo progression. The result of which is a community of players lacking game and social skills.

[greatdane]

Instances introduce more problems than just the total decline of community and PvP environment, too. Suddenly there's no limit to how many times a day any given mob can be killed, so having tradeable items worth anything at all was out of the question. That led to overitemization because acquiring a given item was just a matter of doing the instance x amount of times, and usually not nearly as many times as you would have to try to get an item the traditional way in old-fashioned dungeons. It also forced instances to have copious rewards, because nobody would be satisfied with an instance that just had XP mobs. This further encouraged the over-itemization since any given instance run would be guaranteed to produce far more and better rewards than the same amount of time spent in an actual dungeon. This first started in LDoN where you got not only drops from bosses but also points to buy more items with - usually a full set that was superior to anything you could acquire with similar effort elsewhere - and suddenly there was far too much emphasis on equipment. In Classic/Kunark, you're not useless if you're undergeared, and something like a set of mixed Crafted and Cobalt pieces can absolutely last you until the very upper levels. When content eventually had to over-reward players for participation, that content also had to be tuned so as to require those rewards, increasing the gap between those who had acquired the rewards and those who hadn't. In the end, we got the result that is now a fact in every MMORPG: those with good gear have twice as high stats, DPS, mana etc. as those without it, and the two demographics can't interact in any meaningful way, whether PvP or PvE.

[Clutter]

I think instancing goes hand in hand with a lot of other "simplifications" to the genre. The complex character advancement in EQ and Vanguard are great for old school PnP players and hardcore RPG fans - but you can't get wide market access that way. WoW is popular largely because the character advancement is so narrow. They emphasized gear progression (while simplifying it to tiers), the skill trees boiled down to 1 or 2 viable specs per class, and most of the skills never saw use. No deciding what spells to memorize, no right-clicky item spells. At the top tier of WoW PvP it became easy to predict the course of the fight within a few seconds because every class had a cookie cutter chain of attacks. Top-tier raiding was DDR style "don't stand in the fire" mechanics.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Lyzard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Couldnt agree more... Everquest was my first MMO back when I was like 13 years old and i've played many other MMO's since. (Guild Wars, SW, Star Trek and mainly WoW) The problem IMO was that SOE (post Velious) and all other MMO's thereafter focused on making their games "solo" friendly... by introducing instances anyone could log on at any point in the day no matter whether you have 20 minutes or 24 hours to play the game and still get something done. This is fine although they failed to interpret the points that made Everquest such an amazing game.

Instancing may have in some small way helped people to solo, but instancing reduced costs as well. Keep in mind that when people are in those zones that the zone is the same for all of them. Instancing allows developers to mirror content for (n+1) users. So it was like having infinite content and nobody would have to compete to use it.

Furthermore, if you start making slight changes to each instance, you can have infinite varieties.

Here is a separate post I made about instancing: www.project1999.org ...

Over the years SOE implemented many things to help low levels reach the top: luclin spires, pok books, mudflated items, bazaar, defiant armor, haste/clarity potions (among others), mercenaries, rest experience, ooc regen, reduced experience curve for low levels, guild lobby summoners and rez services, retaining items on death (implemented in last few years), no coin weight, simpler items (you can't go wrong by choosing the wrong item to buy or equip), pok (one city, not several), in-game maps, the find function, etc. These things weren't applied to the game to make it easier, they were instead applied to make it easier for LOW LEVELS to reach the top. Why? Because all MMO's become top heavy over time. Most of the players in an old(er) game are very high level. This means that low level players will often find themselves to be alone or soloing to gain levels. The more group-dependent a game is then the easier it will get as time goes by for low levels to play the game and progress. I've made several posts about this, with more detail in some than in others.

But in some sense you're right. I think they spent less and less on EQ1. This is why we only had POK to bind in (where did all the cities and outposts like CC go?). Expansions seemed to have less and less zones as time went on with less factions/etc. This saved them money not having to make extra things. And spreadsheet items are an example. You can make sweeping changes and additions with a few database operations. Reduces costs. But it makes all items very similar as they're all connected to the same algorithm. However, these can also make the game easier to understand and debug.

Instead of building new relationships with people and later looking them up to form groups which lead to creating new guilds of genuine friends you could enter a queue of thousands of people whom you have never met or will probably never ever see again, group, get the instance done and leave.

This is somewhat true. This is even more true with the advent of cross-server groups. But I've always liked PUGs. Classic EQ had a LOT of PUGs! But the thing is, it always grew from there and friendships blossomed. That's no always the case in modern variants on this theme. Perhaps there's too much variation? (too many to know personally)

What's more is that while you are in said group no one types a single word to one another as the game is too fast to blink, there are hundreds of abilties/spells to use/cast without any downtime, and if you did happen to get some chat out of someone it's usually to flame another member of the group for "taking too long" or "being a n00bz0r".

They essentially turned the MMORPG into a single player online game...

I couldn't say it better myself. Although, I disagree that this necessarily makes it a single player game overall, I do concede that, from a social standpoint, it's very much like a single player game. People like convenience. I also hate how games increasingly are so fast-paced. There's not any time to relax and just chat-chat. Everyone wants to move a million miles per hour. I can't really enjoy most of the MMO's unless I solo because otherwise I'm rushed headfirst into everything without the opportunity to socialize or to absorb the content in a meaningful way. But I inevitably get sick of soloing because I like chit-chat and dungeon crawling with a friend. So, it always seems to end with despair and hopelessness. Even in EQ, grouping can sometimes become too fast paced. It's not as bad as DDO, though. DDO is a speeding bullet. BUT DDO has some great solo content and environments. It's just ruined by the game and the players.

(and ofc, if i want single player games, i have many moddable games far superior to MMOs)

Everyone mentions how downtime is so bad, but it gives us some time to cool down. I realize that it's not welcome in many cases, but without it I get the sense that we would never stop moving or using gamespeak (ru gtg? brt 1m)...

This is why I try to remind others that a game isn't just about leveling up... We get too addicted...

[citizen1080]

I would gladly part with both my nuts for ProjectVanguard

[Hamahakki]

Target rings killed EQ

[Malev]

Originally Posted by Acillatem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The immersion factor is what EQ had over it's competitors. Sitting there waiting 30 minutes for the god damn boat. Sure it sucked. But you felt like you were a part of the world and that was the allure that was Classic EQ. It did an A+ job of making you feel like a part of Norrath. Exploring. Making new friends. All that was the foundation for what made EQ a success.

As the expansions kicked out, they chipped away at that a little bit at a time. The first time I believe I felt the immersion factor slipping away was Luclin. Nexus portals, automated bazaar, Safe Zones (I too played on TZ) etc. While more "convenient", it made the game feel more "computerized" and less "human". Each expansion after that added 1 or 2 things that added convenience, yet removed immersion.

Next came PoK. Then instanced dungeons etc. It just all started to chip away at the heart and soul of EQ until it was a shell of it's former self.

There wasn't 1 singular thing that "destroyed" EQ. It was a series of small changes that overall simply turned EQ into a different game altogether IMO.

I couldn't agree more!

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Target rings killed EQ

was it really the target rings? I thought it was the newbie zone maps.

All I know is it feels like a nerf. Especially the spell sets. And nothing makes me want to leave a game faster than getting hit with the nerf bat.