The Current Raid Environment

[bktroost]

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[bktroost]

I can't comprehend why our main thrust is on mage tracking. If we can't change the rotational order then spawn variance is the over arching concern.

[Pint]

I get where you're coming from maz, but I play a fundamentally different game than you, one that will never involve leveling armies of mage bots. With the current raid environment its easy to forget that most of us spent the last 5 years here enjoying the server for what it is, we didn't all get a taste of the forbidden fruit and get pulled in hook, line and sinker. The only reason I keep coming back to mages is bc its one of the few things we can change amongst ourselves by simply agreeing.

[Derubael]

Variance won't get reduced another single minute if Guilds can't stop poopsocking. Even then, it may not get reduced any further - though don't quote me on that.

At this point its more likely that variance will go UP if you guys can't stop poopsocking. I know everyone remembers that we specifically set no more poopsocking as a condition of this, and it's literally gotten 10x worse with ducking mages and the like. Its become worse, not better, so there's no reason to continue on with the reduced variance that everyone promised would stop the socking

I can hear Sirken silently nodding, agreeing with everything I just said.

[jpetrick]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Variance won't get reduced another single minute if Guilds can't stop poopsocking. Even then, it may not get reduced any further - though don't quote me on that.

At this point its more likely that variance will go UP if you guys can't stop poopsocking. I know everyone remembers that we specifically set no more poopsocking as a condition of this, and it's literally gotten 10x worse with ducking mages and the like. Its become worse, not better, so there's no reason to continue on with the reduced variance that everyone promised would stop the socking

I can hear Sirken silently nodding, agreeing with everything I just said.

Everquest is a game where you wait for things. You are asking people to not play the game. We are simply asking to wait a shorter amount of time for things.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by jpetrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everquest is a game where you wait for things. You are asking people to not play the game. We are simply asking to wait a shorter amount of time for things.

I will restate the point of the whole "stop the sock" post, then - I know not all the guilds were present for the raid talks, the specific one being referred to was the final one where everyone asked for lowered variance. The meeting was basically finished (the real world equivalent of picking up your briefcases and walking out the door) when almost in unison everyone made this request.

We paused for a moment, and then told everyone present that we would promise to get Rogean to lower the variance windows if - and only if everyone stopped with the massive, force sized sockfests. an eager cry of "yes!" "of course!" "absolutely we can do that" rang out among the crowd.

a month later everyone was sitting at KC entrance stinkin up the place with a 80 man sockfest for VS.

obviously theres a difference between your two trackers exchanging socks waiting for a spawn and 3/4's of a guild waiting at Kc entrance with two other guilds' forces. Everyone did really well for a while and then it fell apart.

We just want the current variance to be able to stay based on your guys' own agreement to stop socking - an agreement everyone made with this system in place and this system alone - there were no stipulations of - well, we will stop the sock if xyz happens to abc.....

[arsenalpow]

So this problem is two fold. First you have class C (with the staff holding this mindset as well) saying to "compete" if you want something. That's always been the mantra, work harder nerds. Secondly, there's no line of demarcation between competing and holy shit you guys are sociopaths.

It's an arms race and the line will continually get pushed. Right now we're at the absurd place of coth mages ducking their spells to gain a fraction of a headstart and FTEers being pointed directly at their intended target ahead of time and auto running to hit the ground running after being summoned.

The sock was on the spawn point, then we moved it to the login screen, then we moved it to the zoneline, and now people want to move it one zone over. The socking will never change, it hasn't in almost 5 years.

If you want to remove socking remove the FFA tier. It is literally the only thing that is currently causing socking. Don't ask C and R to agree, don't tell us there's a way to work it out, don't increase variance, don't reduce variance. Socking is a cancer that has spread alllll over the FFA cycle, cut that entire bitch out.

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We just want the current variance to be able to stay based on your guys' own agreement to stop socking - an agreement everyone made with this system in place and this system alone - there were no stipulations of - well, we will stop the sock if xyz happens to abc.....

The general problem with this line of thought Deru is that it more or less ignores the fact that it's the variance issue at the root of the poopsocking to begin with. Which if anything, just offers evidence that the real "fail" in everything you stated was that we didn't think to reduce it enough.

While it may appear that way due to an increased presence, Class R guilds are not poopsocking "more" directly because variance was reduced. They do it because unlike the "business as usual" approach of IB/TMO, the overall commit level that goes into 16 hour windows for them is still viewed as a much larger investment that takes a harder toll on their guilds (especially when they lose). Which in turn just ends up tugging at that always overly tempting (and in most cases, inexperienced) appeal to do anything they believe will absolutely best min/max their chances if/when they do decide to invest that effort. With some Class R guilds (Taken) better equipped and more willing to fight that type of battle then others (Asgard).

Class C on the other hand has mostly abandoned large scale poopsocks, due to the fact that the evolved FTE game has made most of them fairly pointless. I mean outside being on the team in game and going out to get FTE, the only real difference between the one guy who can make the raid to begin with by getting to his pc within 1-2 minutes (longer in more cases), and the other guy sitting in game at the zoneline, is one doesn't need to refresh their buffs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. VS being the only target under normal circumstances that really tempts us to cheat the poopsock count up these days, but even that's mostly negated by the knowledge that the tank running in has a few minutes worth of OP heal stall clickies to buy everybody the run down time we otherwise wouldn't have without them (this in turn only factors in because he still can't be pulled out of his room).

Which again, isn't to say that we don't create our own eye rolling moments for everybody else (and probably you guys) though mind you. Such as buff teams, some of the large scale races to spawn in VP, or seeing the FTE'er count balloon up outside VP when people are awake/bored and nothing else needing tracked happens to be in window.

Of course if you really had that much an issue with any/all of the above, you could pretty much wipe it all away in one stroke by logically taking the same straightforward approach you took combating autofire, and simply extend the 2 tracker/no FTE rule to include a cap on how many people a guild is allowed to have in zone on mob spawn. Pushing most if not all poopsocking as far back as we can ever realistically hope to accomplish (out of game), and presenting the question why we would then need more then a bare minimum amount of variance to begin with.

It's not the fantasy "somebody just randomly checked and Talendor was up in SF. Quick everybody, mobilize from your random exp/cash camps spread out around the world and get to SF!!!!" scenario some seem to pine for, and the hate rules because they are rules crowd might not like it....but at least it would be an overall step forward i'm guessing most would end up agreeing with.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The general problem with this line of thought Deru is that it more or less ignores the fact that it's the variance issue at the root of the poopsocking to begin with. Which if anything, just offers evidence that the real "fail" in everything you stated was that we didn't think to reduce it enough.

While it may appear that way due to an increased presence, Class R guilds are not poopsocking "more" directly because variance was reduced. They do it because unlike the "business as usual" approach of IB/TMO, the overall commit level that goes into 16 hour windows for them is still viewed as a much larger investment that takes a harder toll on their guilds (especially when they lose). Which in turn just ends up tugging at that always overly tempting (and in most cases, inexperienced) appeal to do anything they believe will absolutely best min/max their chances if/when they do decide to invest that effort. With some Class R guilds (Taken) better equipped and more willing to fight that type of battle then others (Asgard).

Class C on the other hand has mostly abandoned large scale poopsocks, due to the fact that the evolved FTE game has made most of them fairly pointless. I mean outside being on the team in game and going out to get FTE, the only real difference between the one guy who can make the raid to begin with by getting to his pc within 1-2 minutes (longer in more cases), and the other guy sitting in game at the zoneline, is one doesn't need to refresh their buffs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. VS being the only target under normal circumstances that really tempts us to cheat the poopsock count up these days, but even that's mostly negated by the knowledge that the tank running in has a few minutes worth of OP heal stall clickies to buy everybody the run down time we otherwise wouldn't have without them (this in turn only factors in because he still can't be pulled out of his room).

Which again, isn't to say that we don't create our own eye rolling moments for everybody else (and probably you guys) though mind you. Such as buff teams, some of the large scale races to spawn in VP, or seeing the FTE'er count balloon up outside VP when people are awake/bored and nothing else needing tracked happens to be in window.

Of course if you really had that much an issue with any/all of the above, you could pretty much wipe it all away in one stroke by logically taking the same straightforward approach you took combating autofire, and simply extend the 2 tracker/no FTE rule to include a cap on how many people a guild is allowed to have in zone on mob spawn. Pushing most if not all poopsocking as far back as we can ever realistically hope to accomplish (out of game), and presenting the question why we would then need more then a bare minimum amount of variance to begin with.

It's not the fantasy "somebody just randomly checked and Talendor was up in SF. Quick everybody, mobilize from your random exp/cash camps spread out around the world and get to SF!!!!" scenario some seem to pine for, and the hate rules because they are rules crowd might not like it....but at least it would be an overall step forward i'm guessing most would end up agreeing with.

and your entire wall of text ignores the fact that deru pointed out, you guys already agreed to end the socking if we shortened variance. we shortened variance, you guys kept on socking.

why on earth would we do any thing but restore the full variance until you guys hold up to what was originally agreed upon? instead of just following the spirit and intentions of the rules (which all the guild leaders were aware of), you guys try to get as close to the line as possible without actually breaking the technical wording of the rule.

[bktroost]

Here's the thing about mage tracking, it was Sirken's attempt at removing autofire. In that aspect it was widely successful.

Here's the other thing, if we were to create a rule that said no CoTH ducking, at what point do we punish the guilds that did X amount of accidental casts? Its going to be a lawyer quest no matter what happens.

We can work on creating a formalized petition to remove CoTH ducking, specifically during the last 3 hours of window, but its not the solution we are really looking for...but its a start.

Deru you said that there is too much poopsocking occurring to consider granting us any favorable changes in variance reduction. If we were to agree on ratifying this mage issue would it warrant a favorable GM change?

The most effective way to incite change in your staff is to provide tangible goals with desirable rewards. If the GMs are able to provide a specific favorable change, I'm sure it would result in change (if the goal is tangible).

I think the CoTH ducking is really only being upheld by a few people that are incentivizing others to do the same. Currently there is no incentive for a larger guild with the means to swap out factioned mages throughout the 16hr window to stop this process. Its fairly annoying, but its an advantage over those who cannot and therefore that discriminating factor outweighs the inconvenience. That's why I recommend a GM endorsed goal with a promise of reduced variance.