Stalling on engages

[Dentalplan]

Stall tactics like this are definitely not in the best interest of actual competition for FFA spawns. Even if it's not explicitly against the rules, it accomplishes the exact same goal that DA stalling did before it was outlawed. I don't see any reason why one should be allowed and the other shouldn't.

I agree with Catherin that the best way to manage this would be to prohibit trackers from tagging the mob. Requiring someone who wasn't in zone at the time of the pop to get the initial FTE would go a long way in bringing back some actual racing for mobs.

[Erati]

The biggest problem with having trackers zone in to tag is its a race of:

1. Connection speed ( who zones faster )
2. Run speed ( bards can only go tag now. Your bard isnt online? you lose.)
3. Chaotically controlled luck ( I know things can get chaotic now, but imagine 70 players flailing about through EJ trying to get the attention of the pixel dragon all equipped with instant clicky mallets or javs )


I agree that things can be improved, however I think rather than one overarching general rule that fits well for one encounter ( Inny) and is meh for others ( Outdoor dragons) there should be room for in general 'server engagement rules' for specific encounters.

There should be 'common sense' things like, you cannot pull Inny to the zone in to engage him ( thank god this isnt done anymore).

Or how everyone universally knows that if your Fay pull starts to take longer than 6-7 min you are probably kiting him which is a no no.

We can tailor small little adjustments to these encounters so everyone can enjoy them more as that is basically what we all want here. We want an enjoyable game.

People get their enjoyment from different aspects, so most will never agree on one singular thing. This is why its hard to put a black and white rule in place to cover so many different types of encounters all with basically a completely different strats depending on the raid.

[bktroost]

Connection speed plays a significant role in many things (lev and island jumping in sky for example).

Bards are used for most pulling anyway, its much easier to pull a dragon to a camp if you have bard MR song and selos playing.

Once someone has FTE it will be their without a doubt. The unsure nature of monks tagging, whirlwinding/Soulfire clicking is not going to be an issue. You will have to zone 2 people in and have them assist in the tag due to charming. I can only see this being less chaotic now. Also, keep the boundaries in place. Have only 2 reps allowed to be designated taggers as it is now. turns 70 people to 18 people, exactly as we have it now.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by bktroost [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have only 2 reps allowed to be designated taggers as it is now. turns 70 people to 18 people, exactly as we have it now.

Well if they only limit it to 2 reps running out to tag as we have with trackers sitting at the spawn point now I could see merits to this form of engagement rules.

I guess when I envisioned the removal of the trackers being able to tag, I envisioned ANYONE being able to zone in and run there. I didnt think to limit that number too since that would be very hard to police.

Its a good thought tho. Worthy of discussion.

[doraf]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All the class R guilds work out their issues. We have a board dedicated to communication within our class. TMO and IB were trading petitions/fraps and negotiating early release from suspensions.

Decreeing that we're supposed to work with each other to come to an amicable solution is a noble idea but if all the class R guilds can work out our issues and TMO/IB can't play nicely, what makes you think that we'll all just figure out these issues together?

TMO's contention is that it wasn't really a pure stall. Someone immediately grabbed FTE after the other guy got DTed, then someone else got charmed, then someone else flopped, then charm broke and that guy ended up with the final FTE. So for the entire duration of Inny spawning there were 3-4 monks herp derping around jostling for FTE while the zerg rushed up to his room. Please please please explain to me how that's any semblance of competition.

I hate losing too, but it happens sometimes.

[Snackies]

Originally Posted by doraf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hate losing too, but it happens sometimes.

Not the place for these comments at all.

To everyone else, as Unbrella mentioned earlier, we'll discuss this internally and see what the general consenus is on the comments/ideas that are brought up here.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by Snackies [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not the place for these comments at all.

To everyone else, as Unbrella mentioned earlier, we'll discuss this internally and see what the general consenus is on the comments/ideas that are brought up here.

+1 awesome snackums. I actually enjoyed our texas shoot off, but i think we'd all have more fun if we made it more of a race. New mechanics means new challenges to become the best at.

[Derubael]

Just so we're all clear, stalling an engage is still against the rules - but there is no hard limit on Soulfire use during an engage like there is for invulnerability spells.

What exactly constitutes a 'stall' during a raid engagement can be hard to quantify, but the general rule we go by when reviewing a situation is 'if it looks like a stall, smells like a stall, and tastes like a stall, it's probably a stall.'

If you guys would like to come together and set a player agreed upon rule on the number of soulfire charges allowed to be burned during a raid engage, we'd be happy to enforce that.

[phiren]

When someone engages a raid target, and has absolutely no intention of killing it, but 'delaying' until help arrives to finish it off... is that not a stall?

I understand that this is acceptable behavior, and EVERY guild is entitled to do this, and this is the way it's always been done... I've just never understood the justification for how it's not a 'stall'.

At least with Sev / Fay / Talendor you can use the excuse 'Oh I'm pulling it, not engaging' (Which is equally debatable).

Are these tactics competitive? Yes
Is there racing involved? Depends on how you look at it...
-Is it a race to the target? Not really.
-Is it a race to get the FTE with 1 of your 2 'trackers'? Yes

As long as every guild is allowed the same tactics.. I don't REALLY think one guild has an advantage over another.

If I (and AG) had a vote -- we would definitely vote along the lines of a "First in Force + FTE". That just seems more like a fun raid scene than leaving it in the hands of 1-2 'trackers'.

The current rules/tactics do benefit the bigger guilds because they can just camp alts everywhere. I do think the "First in Force" would definitely increase competition for the bigger guilds and level the playing field for these FFA targets.

If we did go to a "First in Force" -- the only thing that would happen is guilds would need to keep a force camped in the whole time instead of switching upon pop via vent screaming and batphoning. So instead of 2 people sitting in EJ for 12 hours... guilds would need to have 20+ people sitting in EJ for 12 hours.

Another crazy concept for Fay / Talendor / Sev -- that will get blasted -- is to make the mob actually spawn at different spots. Knowing the EXACT pixel that these mobs spawn on is part of the problem.

It's not classic? Variance isn't either ... but it was implemented for situations like this I imagine.


~Phiren
Azure Guard

[Erati]

I do like the idea of adding some randomness to the spawn nodes. It should cause less face tracking/pet parking on spawn points.

I dunno if that really opens up things all that much but it should be a pretty simple change to implement that would improve the outdoor dragon "competition".