Aradune Returns to EQlive

[Seredoc]

I was in Beta on Vanguard, and yeah the drama was that microsoft had been pushing for Brad and Co. to speed things up or set a definite time table. Well then SOE comes in and says "COme back to us cuz you know how we work and will give you more money in the end than M$ will if you work on our timetable". So everything switched over and we went from beta 1 to beta 4 in a month. Newbie zones were broken, quest mobs were kos to quest givings, there were horrible mis-cons when trying to fight in...well, anywhere. And to kick it all off, with all these bugs they go forward and announce a release date.

So to recap, we're submitting logs to get stuff fixed in newbie zones, not even mentioning the(pardon my "french") shitstorm that was mid range or high lvl content fixes, when we get a message basically saying that they're going to be releasing in 3 to 8 weeks. So a month and a half, to fix the entire level range of mobs. Plus quests. Plus terrain. Not to mention adding content for the six or so number of newbie area that had 4 mobs in them for 100 people to fight over.

SoE is trash gaming, EQnext can be better than original eq and I will not play it because SoE should go out of business.

[SirAlvarex]

Originally Posted by Seredoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was in Beta on Vanguard, and yeah the drama was that microsoft had been pushing for Brad and Co. to speed things up or set a definite time table. Well then SOE comes in and says "COme back to us cuz you know how we work and will give you more money in the end than M$ will if you work on our timetable". So everything switched over and we went from beta 1 to beta 4 in a month. Newbie zones were broken, quest mobs were kos to quest givings, there were horrible mis-cons when trying to fight in...well, anywhere. And to kick it all off, with all these bugs they go forward and announce a release date.

So to recap, we're submitting logs to get stuff fixed in newbie zones, not even mentioning the(pardon my "french") shitstorm that was mid range or high lvl content fixes, when we get a message basically saying that they're going to be releasing in 3 to 8 weeks. So a month and a half, to fix the entire level range of mobs. Plus quests. Plus terrain. Not to mention adding content for the six or so number of newbie area that had 4 mobs in them for 100 people to fight over.

SoE is trash gaming, EQnext can be better than original eq and I will not play it because SoE should go out of business.

That still sounds to me like a company had two different publishers, and couldn't come to an agreement on a set timetable for release. Yes, SoE could have taken faith in Vanguard and let it bleed money for another year. Instead it sounds like they gave the team money when Microsoft was pulling out. I highly doubt the Vanguard team signed a contract with SoE thinking they'd give them more than a few months for a release.

That might be the view from players, and I get that. But having been a developer/IT guy, it really sounds like Vanguard suffered from some really bad development.

If you google "Why Vanguard Failed" you'll see links to interviews all stating that basically Brad sucked as a manager, and that there was a lack of directions/support for the devs. And that SoE pretty much was completely hands-off except for stating "we want a game out" and lent them some developer support. This link, whether it's valid or not (although it does line up with a blog post Brad himself made a few years ago detailing the same events) makes it sound like it was just the team itself to blame, not SoE.

[Pend]

Lot of opinions, and conspiracy theories about VG, and everyone has their own take on it. Here's mine as the technical lead behind VG's most [in]famous, visited, and extensive fansite during the game's production.

Microsoft pulled the plug not only on Vanguard, but other internal-to-Microsoft MMO projects that were late stage as well as a result of some restructuring and consolidation that they initiated in their games division early 2006. Up until then, the MS producer handling Vanguard was committing to see the project through to polished completion, funding wise, where Sigil was controlling the reigns. But yes, VG was pushing the bounds of acceptability a bit, pushing the release out and over-budget. The scale of the game was massive, though.

A credit to the Sigil team that created the foundation, many of the ambitions for VG were, in my mind, ultimately largely achieved, which almost no other MMO even today has achieved:

1. Totally free-flying mounts that didn't create undue advantage vs. game design (game was designed with them in mind).
2. Very distinct adventuring classes, where the play action/style is very different.
3. A crafting system that rivaled the adventuring system in sophistication.
4. Even a third complete game play system (diplomacy) that rivaled crafting or adventuring.
5. Completely seamless world--no "zoning" (even going indoor<->outdoor) anywhere, except when teleporting.
6. Functioning player-made/controlled boats.
7. Player-made housing and guild structures.
8. Music system that gradually changed the music as you traveled to new areas rather than abrupt changes.
9. Almost entirely hand-crafted custom content. Hard-pressed to find "copy/paste" content in the art design, except where necessary (things like trees, etc.).
10. No "fake doors". Every door visible was openable. Every window was "see through" from both interior and exterior. Every building was enterable.
11. etc.

But the MS restructuring was an incidental business decision that had nothing directly to do with VG. VG ended up on the chopping block.

It's all but public knowledge that McQuaid and Smedley are friends. If you've got a company with 150 employees and spent 4 years on a game with a year (or two) left to go and suddenly lose funding, what would you do? McQuaid went to Smedley for a bailout and a bailout is what he got, but with strings attached. SOE and Sigil signed a deal to co-publish the game, McQuaid having just bought the rights to it from Microsoft.

The last year of the game's development is where, I think most would agree, you saw the most fleshing out of the game's features/content/technologies, etc. There's a reason for that, a result of some shuffling that occurred in the roles and responsibilities within the Producer org inside Sigil.

But yeah, one year wasn't enough time to finish it off from that point. SOE is not as committed as Microsoft was to see the game to a polished state before release. SOE, which is their infamous modus operandi on all of their games to date, stood rigidly firm on the expected launch date, game readiness be damned. And launch they did, just under a year later on Jan 2007.

A mere three months after launch, SOE deemed the project a failure and yanked funding. Sigil went bankrupt (don't think they got as far as Chap 11), so, McQuaid and Butler sold their company and its assets to SOE wholly. SOE fired half the Sigil staff on the spot, moved much of the remaining staff to other projects, and left VG floundering. They put very little if anything into fixing the game or marketing it at first (and put almost nothing comparatively into marketing the game at or pre-launch, IMO).

So here's where I agree/disagree with some of the above posters. VG did have management problems (IMO) up until the SOE co-publishing deal--variety of reasons which I won't get into. I think most of the current implementation of the game was done in the last year of its development. But a large share of the problem in its launch state also comes from MS backing out abruptly, and SOE coming in. Smedley is a business guy through and through, and I think he quickly felt that he'd been handed a raw deal and treated VG that way when what it really needed was additional investment for, say, another 6 months (they eventually did, but not until much later) BEFORE launching it. But as I said, SOE's M.O. is launch first, ask questions later.

I was relatively close to the Sigil development team during the game's production and that's the way I remember it playing out.

Sigil was founded in Jan 2002. That means from founding the company to launch, it was a 5 year project. But you don't start out with 150 employees overnight. Sigil didn't have funding until May '02 when they signed with Microsoft. So let's give them the first year as a new company to sort things out. That means VG was a 4 year project, and still managed to produce all of those revolutions in MMO game design (albeit buggy). Not bad, IMO.

[Pend]

Forgot to add a bit to tie this back into the OP of this thread. I have some personal issues with McQuaid regarding how he treated us as a fansite right around VG launch timeframe. But I also think he really does share responsibility for why EQ classic was the way it was (which you all are enjoying again thanks to P99). And he had remarkable vision for VG. And I think he's an asset to the EQlive team, in whatever capacity. He's a great designer, just perhaps not a great manager of people to the level needed to run an entire company or execute a large-scale software project from the top. So, it's great to see him active again and part of me would rather he have said that he's involved in EQnext instead of the aging EQlive.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Pend [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(Pend's post on Vanguard)

Interesting read.

[Xiki101]

Originally Posted by Pend [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lot of opinions, and conspiracy theories about VG, and everyone has their own take on it. Here's mine as the technical lead behind VG's most [in]famous, visited, and extensive fansite during the game's production.

Microsoft pulled the plug not only on Vanguard, but other internal-to-Microsoft MMO projects that were late stage as well as a result of some restructuring and consolidation that they initiated in their games division early 2006. Up until then, the MS producer handling Vanguard was committing to see the project through to polished completion, funding wise, where Sigil was controlling the reigns. But yes, VG was pushing the bounds of acceptability a bit, pushing the release out and over-budget. The scale of the game was massive, though.

A credit to the Sigil team that created the foundation, many of the ambitions for VG were, in my mind, ultimately largely achieved, which almost no other MMO even today has achieved:

1. Totally free-flying mounts that didn't create undue advantage vs. game design (game was designed with them in mind).
2. Very distinct adventuring classes, where the play action/style is very different.
3. A crafting system that rivaled the adventuring system in sophistication.
4. Even a third complete game play system (diplomacy) that rivaled crafting or adventuring.
5. Completely seamless world--no "zoning" (even going indoor<->outdoor) anywhere, except when teleporting.
6. Functioning player-made/controlled boats.
7. Player-made housing and guild structures.
8. Music system that gradually changed the music as you traveled to new areas rather than abrupt changes.
9. Almost entirely hand-crafted custom content. Hard-pressed to find "copy/paste" content in the art design, except where necessary (things like trees, etc.).
10. No "fake doors". Every door visible was openable. Every window was "see through" from both interior and exterior. Every building was enterable.
11. etc.

But the MS restructuring was an incidental business decision that had nothing directly to do with VG. VG ended up on the chopping block.

It's all but public knowledge that McQuaid and Smedley are friends. If you've got a company with 150 employees and spent 4 years on a game with a year (or two) left to go and suddenly lose funding, what would you do? McQuaid went to Smedley for a bailout and a bailout is what he got, but with strings attached. SOE and Sigil signed a deal to co-publish the game, McQuaid having just bought the rights to it from Microsoft.

The last year of the game's development is where, I think most would agree, you saw the most fleshing out of the game's features/content/technologies, etc. There's a reason for that, a result of some shuffling that occurred in the roles and responsibilities within the Producer org inside Sigil.

But yeah, one year wasn't enough time to finish it off from that point. SOE is not as committed as Microsoft was to see the game to a polished state before release. SOE, which is their infamous modus operandi on all of their games to date, stood rigidly firm on the expected launch date, game readiness be damned. And launch they did, just under a year later on Jan 2007.

A mere three months after launch, SOE deemed the project a failure and yanked funding. Sigil went bankrupt (don't think they got as far as Chap 11), so, McQuaid and Butler sold their company and its assets to SOE wholly. SOE fired half the Sigil staff on the spot, moved much of the remaining staff to other projects, and left VG floundering. They put very little if anything into fixing the game or marketing it at first (and put almost nothing comparatively into marketing the game at or pre-launch, IMO).

So here's where I agree/disagree with some of the above posters. VG did have management problems (IMO) up until the SOE co-publishing deal--variety of reasons which I won't get into. I think most of the current implementation of the game was done in the last year of its development. But a large share of the problem in its launch state also comes from MS backing out abruptly, and SOE coming in. Smedley is a business guy through and through, and I think he quickly felt that he'd been handed a raw deal and treated VG that way when what it really needed was additional investment for, say, another 6 months (they eventually did, but not until much later) BEFORE launching it. But as I said, SOE's M.O. is launch first, ask questions later.

I was relatively close to the Sigil development team during the game's production and that's the way I remember it playing out.

Sigil was founded in Jan 2002. That means from founding the company to launch, it was a 5 year project. But you don't start out with 150 employees overnight. Sigil didn't have funding until May '02 when they signed with Microsoft. So let's give them the first year as a new company to sort things out. That means VG was a 4 year project, and still managed to produce all of those revolutions in MMO game design (albeit buggy). Not bad, IMO.

Well said sir. Myself was a true Vanguard raider and played hardcore up until free to play. This game was buggy as can be but a few hundred of us saw past that and truly believed in the vision of Vanguard. Although working on a small crew with lack of funding, They did manage to give out what I feel was the best raid content I ever played. It took months to defeat every major boss and gear out your guildies. During this time I also raided in W.o.W which was a joke(except their first expansion was decent raid content). after their first raid dungeon, Raid progression kind of took a wierd turn giving us only overland raid bosses instead of raid dungeons.

I left Vanguard during free to play not because I was upset it was going free to play, but because I simply played Vanguard till I couldnt play no more. I am happy to see that free to play community is loving the game compared to when this game launched the communtiy wanted heads to roll and they did.

[koros]

Since he seems to be willing to provide information (at least on the FA quest), can someone w/ forum access ask him about the Glowing black stone and if there is/was a related quest?

What about the Holy Partisan of Underfoot or the original Greenmist quest? I'm sure most/all were broken, but there absolutely has to be quests that "work" but have missing steps/dialogue. I'd love to see some of these discovered.

[Loli Pops]

Intredasting.

[Nubben]

Very nice read, thanks for sharing. It really makes me want to give Vanguard a try. I did download it a few months ago and created a FTP account but I only played for about a half hour. At that point I had too much going on to really get into a new MMO, but I still have it installed on my computer. Is it playable at all in short sessions (30 minutes to 2 hours or so) as a casual player?

[Yinikren]

I loved Vanguard, bugs and all, it was simple a fantastic adventure and a visually appealing game. I am sure you could run about and explore in smaller time sessions, there are those porting stones now for travel but the world is still huge.