Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"step by step process" you make it seem complicated

you mean mez the mob tash it then charm it

yeah we really "perfected" the use of 3 spells

Lol. Stop being obtuse.

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol. Stop being obtuse.

he made it sound like charming a mob is some complicated elaborate thing that took 20 years to be "perfected", he's the one being obtuse

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

he made it sound like charming a mob is some complicated elaborate thing that took 20 years to be "perfected", he's the one being obtuse

I mean, I guess maybe we're envisioning different things. Yeah, charming something is just casting a tash and a charm. But managing a charm well over an extended session takes some more "complexity" in the form of managing charm breaks without neglecting other duties in groups or dying when solo, carrying and not losing pet gear, coordinating with mages or shams for debuffs maybe druids for snare sometimes, healers and stunners knowing when and how to help on a split second's notice, etc. Charming at the high end where it means more than just getting through some levels faster exp requires a lot more to avoid horrible deaths on a regular basis in locations that can be hard to CR and may be taken by another player or group before you can recover.

It isn't some impossible task, but there is a lot that goes into doing it properly that most people don't have the interest in nor the patience for these days, let alone 20 years ago when we thought ingame weddings and roleplaying with different languages were cool things to spend our time on. It's stuff that wasn't known initially, only was slowly figured out over time by a variety of different people who weren't all in contact with each other to share their tricks, was being done on generally crappy connections on the short, classic timeline where players had more to worry about than figuring out how to solo X camp with charm or how to minmax their average charm duration using parsing tools and tests. Etc.


Enchanter charming on P99 has basically been all of this, even though we basically were starting out miles ahead of the 1999 enchanters in terms of EQ and general MMO knowledge and experience.

[Tecmos Deception]

You guys like to say "there were good players back then, they'd have figured it out."

THEY DID. There just isn't fantastic evidence of it. And while there were some top notch players, there were a lot more shitty ones. Just like now (except even worse then because of the 20 fewer years of internet hardware, wikis, and MMO experience they had then, plus different overall priorities like "i think I'll go check out that ingame wedding in the temple of life instead of parsing my logs for average charm duration info at various charisma levels") So big surprise you read a lot more comments about how shitty enchanters didn't know wtf to do with charm than you do about good enchanters soloing like beasts.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"step by step process" you make it seem complicated

you mean mez the mob tash it then charm it

yeah we really "perfected" the use of 3 spells

Bottom line is if you think Charm is inaccurate on P99 versus live launch then provide evidence. Otherwise it’s kind of a pointless discussion.

For every person who remembers something on way, there’s someone who remembers it being a different way. Stupid to have all these debates unless you can provide concrete evidence.

[bwe]

That argument's not great because it's just as easy to go the other way. Provide evidence that the current state of charm is the same as it was on live.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by bwe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That argument's not great because it's just as easy to go the other way. Provide evidence that the current state of charm is the same as it was on live.

That's not how it works. To change something you prove it should be changed. Stuff is the way it is because the staff who have already spent years on this figured it out as best they could already. You don't get to upend that just because nobody can prove it is correct.


That aside, I submit xornns enchanter guide as supporting similar charm and mr here as in classic era.

I mean, the guide is pretty damn similar to guides on p99 or to the play of good chanters on here. He calls charm the chanters strongest and most versatile tool. He praises root as cc, aoe mez as great. He only keeps 1 stun on his bar for charm breaks suggesting he doesn't get it resisted enough to consider a second one as a backup. He talks about charisma and the buff line being important for charms and mezzes. His solo exp charming is solid. He even talks about engaging multiple mobs with a charm and using them for more dps in groups.

That doesn't sound like a guy who can't rely on charm, who can't handle charm breaks, who gets a ton of resists on stuns and roots, etc. It sounds about like someone playing on p99.

He doesn't even address summoning mobs, kunark 51+ spells, etc. So he wasn't even out of classic spells and 1-50 zones but he was already comfortable using charm and the other spells people in here have called op on p99.

Imagine how much more he'd like charm if he hadn't disliked berserker strength line because the strength component fades (oh noes) when the rune is eaten up, or if he'd though of having the resistance debuff he mentions shams having put on his pets, or if he had a gcd clicky and 2 wands of allure, or if he had a modern computer and internet connection and the p99 wiki and dozens of streamers to watch for tips and tricks. Why gee, he'd probably have been managing charm like a pro while outdpsing whole groups and farming cash camps solo! Go figure.


The dudes roleplay-y intro to chanting even sounds like what I keep saying about why not many people figured out chanters before and why still not too many have it mastered now:

the enchanter gives the least room for error, the least understanding for mistakes, and the most expectations from your fellow adventurers.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Charm needs to be nerfed. There is a ton of evidence now it isn't working as in classic. Even ignoring the evidence this thread is enough proof that people don't consider it classic and want it nerfed. Enchanters not included.

Your evidence is indirect and conflicting. There's no parses, no data. It's just anecdotes from a bunch of different enchanters of unknown skill level, with unknown methods, in unknown situations making different, general claims about charm. For all you know, the comments you're seeing of chanters who didn't think charm should be used in groups were trying to charm yellow cons at 150 charisma with no malaise, no stuns loaded, sitting 3 feet from their pet, running lom because he likes to nuke stuff, and playing with a shitty 28.8 modem. Of course someone like that is going to have a bad time with charm, talk about how awful it is, and scare 5 group mates away from ever letting a chanter charm with them in the future.

Show me 1, just ONE enchanter who was charming a low blue con with tash, malaise, and -mr gear on their pet, who properly set up spell gems and positioning to handle charm breaks, who had 200+ charisma, and who still claimed charm was too dangerous to use for DPS in groups.

You won't be able to, because either 1) nobody was doing all of even half of that stuff back in the day and/or 2) the people who did it were few in number and not talking about it much.


Explain away the indirect evidence I pointed to in favor of charm being similar on live to how it is here, if you can. It's a more thorough, more detailed, more well-written source that chanters relied on enough that it still exists today that is written very much like modern guides written by p99 enchanters.

[Tecmos Deception]

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/whitewi...ChantGuide.htm

Charm - Here it is. The big dog. The secret to uber-soloing. When you cast this, the target mob (max level 25) becomes your pet to command. NPC mobs hit much harder, have more hitpoints, and basically outweigh all PC pets in every way. If two mobs fight (one as your pet) and you nuke the enemy once, your pet should win the fight, though almost dead. Then you kill your pet for full experience. No class can touch our ability to solo with this method. Dropping double-yellow mobs with two bubbles of mana is basically mind-blowing, and double-blues can be great xp still. It's also extremely hazardous. I really don't feel we have the ability to charm solo until the Fifth Circle, when you have our entire spell-line available. If you insist on trying it now, you'll just have to skip ahead and find a work-around to not having Mesmerization, which I feel is critical to be successful. Also, you need a massive Charisma. I'm talking about 170+

Another extensive, classic-era enchanter guide that describes charm like it functions on p99. Read the rest of the guide to see that the author wasn't an idiot, but still had a lot of things "wrong" compared to modern knowledge of how to use certain spells and handle certain situations.


Better than any of the "nerf charm" comments I've come across here and I've found two of them with like 10 minutes of total searching. This dude actually recommends using charm on stuff that is TOO STRONG to kill with the "kamikaze" method (i.e. using an animation and supporting spells/damage to solo exp). Lots of similarities and even some identical sections to Xornn's guide, but with significant differences as well. Compare and contrast Xornn's definition of the Charm spell in his elaboration of the "4th circle" to the guide I'm linking to here:

Charm - Here it is. The big dog. When you cast this, the target mob (max level 25) becomes your pet to command. NPC mobs hit much harder, have more hitpoints, and basically outweigh all PC pets in every way. If two mobs fight (one as your pet) and you slow the enemy, your pet should win the fight, though almost dead. Then you kill your pet for full experience. No class can touch our adaptiveness in soloing with this method, and few will encounter the excitement. Dropping double-blues with little mana use and your full attention requires is a real rush. It's also extremely hazardous. While at a point and time I felt that Charisma was the end all be all of charming, my ways have changed, and Drekaar solos charm style with 85 Charisma.

Edit - Whoop! That actually IS Xornn writing that also, just apparently when he was lower level. He refined his guide and changes wordings but the fact that his recommendations for how to use charm and stuns and such doesn't change much over the course of many levels of classic-era enchanting is telling, imo.

[rabids]

I played a mage on live for a long time. During pop i really started using pet canni a lot. I crunched numbers and built all my aa's around it. I got up to around 200 mana per tick while actively cannying. I could chaincast dd's on all mobs, even with cain pulls. It was glorious!

But me and the other mages that I spoke to went a long way towards keeping this a secret. The times someone posted guides on the boards they sometimes got pressured to delete it. The nerf-bat was real. I have tried to find evidence of pet canni today, and havent found any. Not that i'm good at searching...

My point is that the nerf-bat was real for chanters too. I have no doubt lots of chanters were charming their asses off, but why would they share it outside their guild? Things were nerfed all the time.