CORONAVIRUS Death Thread

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lune, are you aware of any studies that have attempted to measure a causal relation between a positive COVID DNA test and actual symptoms? As a scientist I am sure you know that one cannot simply divide deaths by positive tests due to sampling bias, which is why in March Business Insider can say that the global death rate was 5% globally, 11% in Italy, and 1.8% in the US in comparison to the flu at 0.1% while the July CDC Estimate is now 0.65%. Do you know how the CDC is deriving their estimate? They must be trying to correct somehow as it's lower than deaths / tests, but on the other hand motorcycle deaths are now caused by COVID and African livestock and fruits are testing positive so I think it would be hard to get good data.

There is so much noise out there that I'm not even trying to read it all and am just going with my gut feeling that COVID is mostly media panic with very little scientific rigor, that the death rate is likely much lower than 0.65%, and that under 1% is hardly a huge problem anyway. We all die someday and I personally prefer quality to quantity of life, while wearing masks turns us all into unemotional, faceless slaves who can't communicate with each other. John Waters says it well. That said, I would be open to changing my mind if a well designed study showed the CDC has somehow significantly underestimated the rate of death or major symptoms.

Also, JP has a bunch of really funny videos on COVID.

I don't deny there are problems with the current epidemiology evidence, but you have to ask yourself: Who is benefiting from using isolated incidents to spread rumors that the US is mass-counting motorcycle deaths to artificially inflate COVID statistics? And for those who take issue with the evidence, are they substituting superior evidence of their own?

My father in law is an infectious disease specialist who worked with Fauci, has invented vaccines, was the chief of his field at Johns Hopkins, etc and we talk a lot about this. The evidence you actually have access to goes far beyond CDC guidelines, news reports, and youtube videos. We know beyond a reasonable doubt that:

1. The disease has a much higher death rate among vulnerable populations, as high as 10-15% in those who are more than 80 years old with cardiovascular comorbidities
2. It has a genetic-lottery interplay with your blood such that in some individuals it has been responsible for strokes, pulmonary embolisms, brain damage, and blood vessel damage.
3. If you happen to get a bad case, even if you don't die, it will scar your lungs, and you have that for the rest of your life.

By those facts alone I can't imagine how this could be perceived as media panic. There are a lot of people in this country who don't like the way their stocks are performing and want you to get back to work whether it is dangerous or not, regardless of the threat to society's vulnerable population. So you don't necessarily have to have faith in the CDC's estimate of the death rate, you just have to care enough about other people to want to protect them just in case.

If your answer is YOLO, or that the minor interpersonal inconvenience of having to have a mask over your face is too much to bear, that's your choice (for now, usually). I just think it is an unethical one.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't deny there are problems with the current epidemiology evidence, but you have to ask yourself: Who is benefiting from using isolated incidents to spread rumors that the US is mass-counting motorcycle deaths to artificially inflate COVID statistics? And for those who take issue with the evidence, are they substituting superior evidence of their own?

Political hacks are benefiting since they think it will help them oust trump. There were two real doctors on youtube who said they have heard other doctors personally tell them they have been pressured to label non-c19 deaths as actual c19-deaths. What do those doctors gain by telling us this?

The other people are the ones who are just greedy. just like pretty much every university study ends with asking for more money for this "incredibly serious issue--as we have shown here'". Anyone who thinks they can profit from the new, afraid american public are licking their lips. Many are in the medical industry or tangential to it.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't deny there are problems with the current epidemiology evidence, but you have to ask yourself: Who is benefiting from using isolated incidents to spread rumors that the US is mass-counting motorcycle deaths to artificially inflate COVID statistics?

I feel like the burden of proof should lie with the people who want to make everyone wear masks and social distance and shut down the economy and so on.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. It has a genetic-lottery interplay with your blood such that in some individuals it has been responsible for strokes, pulmonary embolisms, brain damage, and blood vessel damage.
3. If you happen to get a bad case, even if you don't die, it will scar your lungs, and you have that for the rest of your life.

What is your evidence, though? I did a quick search of google scholar for 'covid stroke' and I found this paper, which states "In a retrospective study of 214 hospitalized COVID-19 patients from Wuhan, China, 5.7% of the severe patients suffered a stroke". You and I both know that statements like this are garbage. What are 'severe patients'? Everything depends on the sampling bias. And I can't check the reference, because it no longer exists. I am perfectly willing to amend my position if you can show that, say, while only 0.5% of COVID patients die, another 5% suffer significant permanent injury, but I have yet to see any evidence for it.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your answer is YOLO, or that the minor interpersonal inconvenience of having to have a mask over your face is too much to bear, that's your choice (for now, usually). I just think it is an unethical one.

I think I was pretty clear that I don't view masks as a minor interpersonal inconvenience.

[kaizersoze]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like the burden of proof should lie with the people who want to make everyone wear masks and social distance and shut down the economy and so on.



What is your evidence, though? I did a quick search of google scholar for 'covid stroke' and I found this paper, which states "In a retrospective study of 214 hospitalized COVID-19 patients from Wuhan, China, 5.7% of the severe patients suffered a stroke". You and I both know that statements like this are garbage. What are 'severe patients'? Everything depends on the sampling bias. And I can't check the reference, because it no longer exists. I am perfectly willing to amend my position if you can show that, say, while only 0.5% of COVID patients die, another 5% suffer significant permanent injury, but I have yet to see any evidence for it.



I think I was pretty clear that I don't view masks as a minor interpersonal inconvenience.

https://news.umiamihealth.org/en/wha...s-of-covid-19/

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...d-19-infection

The rest of the world has been distancing and shutting down temporarily and yes, thier economies did take a hit. Though many of them (such as Italy who was being ravaged) are now back to normal with the virus all but eradicated by following along with the WHO's guidelines while we are still getting many new cases every single day because we have the "I don't want to wear a mask or social distance" crowd. If we are the only ones who are still being effected as seriously as we are, I find it very doubtful the rest of the world is wrong.

I understand people think that their freedom is at stake, though for instance during the world wars people in England had curfews instated and orders to keep their lights off during bombings. These things werent to strip away freedom, it was to save lives. I've heard so many people say "let it kill who it's going to kill" and the notion, to me, is disgusting. Many cases can be mild and recovered from, but if you're in a high risk group or happen to catch a rapidly evolving form of the virus because it's spreading so quickly, you can easily end up like the man who survived, but ended up with a 1.1 million dollar hospital bill.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...hospital-bill/

As for keeping the economy shut down, it was intended to be a temporary measure to ensure people's safety. We have completely disregarded it because we decided that the virus was over prematurely and paid dearly for it. A lot of the stimulus money that was intended to go to small businesses like mom and pop shops so they could stay afloat during this time was sucked up by larger companies who have teams of lawyers who can comb through the documents much more quickly due to a lack of oversight in the process. Now all of the money (what was the figure, 3 trillion dollars?) that we printed to pump into the stock market will just devalue the dollar further, which so far this year has been about 4.5% as of right now, and will further do so if we need to shut back down fully again and be more catastrophic than if we had just done it right the first time.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/currency

[Gwaihir]

Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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I understand people think that their freedom is at stake, though for instance during the world wars people in England had curfews instated and orders to keep their lights off during bombings. These things werent to strip away freedom, it was to save lives. I've heard so many people say "let it kill who it's going to kill" and the notion, to me, is disgusting. Many cases can be mild and recovered from, but if you're in a high risk group or happen to catch a rapidly evolving form of the virus because it's spreading so quickly, you can easily end up like the man who survived, but ended up with a 1.1 million dollar hospital bill.

Your premise is predicated upon the theory that if people wear a mask, that this virus is eventually going to go away, and that the fatass won't eventually come across the virus transmitted vicariously through people they come into close contact with in the future.

However.....

By what measure do you think this particular strain of the cold, is going to just disappear?

What is your time horizon that the rest of the world needs to wait it out before we subject your "high risk" individual to a world returned to normal?

I mean, think about it.....all things considered the high risk individual is eventually going to come across Corona, and when they do their chance of survival, percentage-wise, will be the same as it was today, last week, last month, last fiscal quarter....you get where I'm going with this?

[Woke Locc]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. If you happen to get a bad case, even if you don't die, it will scar your lungs, and you have that for the rest of your life.

Describe the cause of this. It may be useful to explain how exactly the lung becomes scarred. Tell them and frighten them.

You can save lives.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Woke Locc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Describe the cause of this.

The virus attacks tissues in your lungs, damaging them and making areas of your lung that normally participate in ventilation and perfusion inert, decreasing your respiratory capacity. Damage caused by the virus, coupled with disruption of cell-mediated immunity, predisposes the lung to further opportunistic infections by bacteria. Fibrotic tissue is a better medium for bacteria and fungi than healthy vascular alveoli. Ventilation in the ICU due to acute respiratory failure caused by severe cases of the covids are another source of pathogenic colonization of the lung which can cause damage.

Very, very few people who get coronavirus get a severe case. Few of those with severe cases require ventilation in the ICU. From there, few end up with lasting damage.

Masking and distancing is meant more to protect the vulnerable than the young and healthy, people who may have as high as 10 to 15% chance of death or lasting effects, compared to less than 1% for you or I. As someone who works with geriatrics these aren't braindead zombies sitting around in nursing homes or living with family saying "Meh I could live or die, idc", they are human beings, the vast majority of whom want to live longer. The greater the proportion of society that becomes infected, the more difficult it will be for these people to avoid infection themselves.

Even if coronavirus were just another strain of the flu, no more or less dangerous, there is a reason all staff who work around geriatrics or in inpatient settings are required to get flu shots and practice basic public health concepts-- the flu absolutely ravages old people, just like coronavirus does. It would be asinine during a flu pandemic where close to half, possibly more, of cases are asymptomatic, to go waltzing around old people without any precautions-- just like it's asinine to not practice universal masking and simple distancing with coronavirus.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Woke Locc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Describe the cause of this. It may be useful to explain how exactly the lung becomes scarred. Tell them and frighten them.

You can save lives.

I enjoyed this post ^o^ I actually lol’d

[Bigsham]

Yea it didnt spread fast in sweden because no one goes there and the people dont travel much its like denmark, netherlands and all the other worthless euro countries no one gives a shit about

[HalflingSpergand]

I've been noticing that the virus is very much not a real thing. It's a group think activity.