Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Yukahwa]

PVP itself disenfranchises casual gamers.. I dont remember exactly, but IIRC RZ wasn't less populated than the no loot servers. You make it sound like casual gamers get FBSS's.

All no item loot means is that the guys uncasual enough to get extremely valuable items don't risk anything by wearing them.

Salty - Nice to see a PVP guy.

[Buhbuh]

Originally Posted by Yukahwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PVP itself disenfranchises casual gamers.. I dont remember exactly, but IIRC RZ wasn't less populated than the no loot servers. You make it sound like casual gamers get FBSS's.

All no item loot means is that the guys uncasual enough to get extremely valuable items don't risk anything by wearing them.

Salty - Nice to see a PVP guy.

"IIRC" - inaccurate 90% of the time. Despite your account, RZ was a different beast. Players were tamer in degree, role playing was a big deal, PKers were labeled "PKers," it was a 4 +/- level range.

"PvP itself" is why we're all here, casual or hardcore, pal. Don't make claims that make no sense. You don't level on a PvP server thinking, "I don't play much, so I'm disenfranchised." People come here to PvP, they know the inherent risks with the rule set. The point isn't that people won't play on the server, it's that lots of people won't even bother starting up with item loot. I guarantee you that.

I get that you have a "fuck 'em" attitude toward those who don't prefer the most hardcore, no holds barred server, but most of us here are circumspect veterans that have the foresight to estimate how stunted the population will be if item loot is in. It will be a fraction of what a non item loot server would bring. Who cares? Well, that's where we differ, pal. I'm all about just a PvP enabled server with a stronger, more stable population, so that I actually have more people to kill. My concern is killing players, not taking their loot. I could care less if they kept their loot. I enjoy evenly matched battles. But, I'm also aware of what drives people away and what keeps people playing.

I'll tell you what I know. Maybe 5 (?) people quit when item loot was removed from an older box (or they were banned, it really was an insignificant number). Probably 50-150 more people started playing over the period of a few months because it was rescinded.

What you're seeing here, Yukahwa, are people who are pro item-loot ideally, but who have seen it in effect firsthand destroying a population. Argue the pros for it all you want, but the majority here aren't for it as adamantly as you because of the empirical evidence we've all seen and experienced in the past with it.

It might do okay with Rogean running things, but it will be far better without it.

[XiakenjaTZ]

he wins again. no item loot is better for server growth and long term health.

[Pudge]

i think this issue has been settled. as far as player consensus goes:

coin loot, yes.
item loot, no.
Exp loss, no. (although i myself think it would be good, most players dont want it. unless it's minor exp loss, i guess it'll just be too much for ppl)

And it's in another thread, but while im listing settled discussions..

LnS: no.
Corpse camping: yes. (the flip side of "LnS: no")
Bind rushing: yes. (exp loss on death could limit bind rushing though... just need a corpse-camp-exp-loss prevention mechanism.)
Bind camping: yes. (this is a closer situation, but most ppl say let bind camping be. because it's not that big a deal to log on another character, or make some food while you wait for the camper to go away.)

[Humerox]

Buhbuh has it down.

On the XP deal...there really should be XP loss...reduced to ~50% for the sake of compromise.

I don't think XP loss would inhibit anybody but solo gankers. Solo classes could make it up comparatively easy, but it would contribute to less soloing and more grouping, imo.

Originally Posted by Yukahwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, item loot just means ikky bp'ed level 10 rogues that don't have to worry about death. It means there is no incentive for anyone to try to kill them either, except pride, which is not much of an incentive because killing a level 10 is weak..and its a video game.

They'd have to worry if a level range group was on 'em. The lone wolf and solo ganker problems tend to go away when people group up. Promoting ideas to stimulate group play over solo play is what's necessary.

[Yukahwa]

To me, item loot just means ikky bp'ed level 10 rogues that don't have to worry about death. It means there is no incentive for anyone to try to kill them either, except pride, which is not much of an incentive because killing a level 10 is weak..and its a video game.

[Yukahwa]

Its more fun to kill him when your group gets to take his BP. I agree in promoting grouping though. Sometimes people screw up HP ring pulls... its just more exciting. Like others have said..anyone playing PVP is here to PVP..so why not have item loot? /sigh

[Galacticus]

Originally Posted by Yukahwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its more fun to kill him when your group gets to take his BP. I agree in promoting grouping though. Sometimes people screw up HP ring pulls... its just more exciting. Like others have said..anyone playing PVP is here to PVP..so why not have item loot? /sigh

There are fundamental problems with item loot that I didn't really see you address. Maybe you have solutions to these problems.

1. No drop gear. It defeats the purpose of item loot and the fundamental idea of risk for wearing something that makes you better.

2. People will run around without gear most of the time unless in a group. Is that fun to promote that play style?

3. Casters are at huge advantages just because of the fact they don't rely on gear as much as melee. Promotes people rolling classes that can solo instead of group classes, is that a good thing? Not in this game.

4. Bagging your gear or plugging is a way for people to easily avoid losing anything. The mere option to do this defeats the purpose of item loot.

While item loot works in theory, there is no way to fix these problems which lead to a server filled with a bunch of half naked casters, and some uber guilds decked out in full no drop gear rolling around owning all the naked casters.

[Yukahwa]

1. That isn't a problem. No drop items are their own reward. Players seek them, when you have them..congrats. No drop gear only became a problem much later when augments were added so you could make all of your gear no drop..but that was when the game was past its prime. In classic, Planes gear is all no drop. That is your reward for getting it. Way to go. You will probably still wear an FBSS though. Be careful, player.

2. A full set of banded is dirt cheap and gives plenty of AC for a melee..bronze for plate wearers. At the levels where someone can very easily be killed, they shouldn't have great gear anyways. If they do..they are a twink so who cares if they lose it. Be careful.

3. Casters have massive advantages either way. In classic, it doesn't matter if you are wearing a full set of Ro armor or not..root is going to land and you are going to get nuked because you have no resists because you are an old world melee. Item loot or not has no bearing on this. A naked caster will die very very quickly to a same level melee with just an average weapon 2 melees will almost certainly kill the 1 caster. A naked melee will die very very quickly to a same level caster. It just depends who gets the drop on who. But yeah..this is still everquest and in the old world, mana users have the most power.

4. If you can bag all your gear in time, congrats, you were a careful player. Consider bagging like quickly stashing your valuables if you want to make it fit with your RP play style or something.

Its like you forget that item loot was a simple reality for all of rallos zek. Yeah, people that remember feeling maximum uber on their non item loot servers will need to learn to deal with the challenges of playing on a server that actually punishes you for dying..but thats what PVP is all about. Is losing your Bronze BP so bad? I know your gear doesn't match as well when you wear the leather BP but..seriously.

All of this encourages people to get to know group and guild mates and trust them and to build relationships. PK'ers are known and despised and even hunted and that dread is even more potent when it is backed by the feeling of real loss when your favorite piece of armor is stolen.

The game is technically broken either way..but its fun, and even more so when you really have to stay vigilant.

[Buhbuh]

Kael, PoG, SS armor. Bracers of Benevolence on all classes, bar pure casters and priests. Yelinak, Sontalak, Tunare, Zlandicar, Klandicar, Wuoshi, Vindi, Statue, Tormax, Dain, PoM, NToV, Dozekar, WToV, Sleeper's Tomb, Strength of the Elements, Tantor's Tusk, Sceptre of Destruction, Zlandicar's heart, pre-primal weapons, Eyepatch of Plunder, Dain quest rings, VP, epics, early plane armor and weapons, haste items that very few are stupid enough to wear in dangerous situations.

That leaves? Eventual obsolescence and no one taking risks at all. As we've experienced, it leaves a population fearful of putting on even halfway decent gear, because it's the hugest time sink ever trying to get it. Were you there in the beginning of RZ? Or do you just remember fondly what it used to be like there when you did start?

Blind will be landing here much more that live, I imagine. That presents another problem all together with item loot.