Game Mechanics: Sneak / FD nerfs

[Brocode]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...86&postcount=4

here about the topic:

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NPCs will only remove PCs from feign memory on successful blur rolls, pending update. As before, Invis/Sneak/Hide will still prevent re-aggro while they're up, but once they are broken the PC is fair game.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Brocode [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

here about the topic:

I don't think it should be this way though.

Sneak shouldn't prevent reaggro.

I cannot remember ever seeing or using Sneak this way on Live in combination with Feign Death as a Monk.

Splitting NPCs were done by manipulating spawn point resets or multiple Monks.

[Brocode]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it should be this way though.

Sneak shouldn't prevent reaggro.

I cannot remember ever seeing or using Sneak this way on Live in combination with Feign Death as a Monk.

Splitting NPCs were done by manipulating spawn point resets or multiple Monks.

Well a good info on how Sneak work is http://web.archive.org/web/200403092...opicID=5.topic will try to highlight the pulling area, but you can read all about it in the link.

3) Agro pulling with Sneak. As previouisly mentioned, sneak reduces the argo range of mobs, this can be very helpful in splitting mobs using and agro pull, but this is one you need to know the pathing for, if the pathing takes a social mob right into another one your not going to see any benfit from it.

<b>4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.</b>
With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

Also (That would mean the sneak pulling previous nerf was correct?)

Sneak pulling 100% works. If the mob can't see you it can't agro, best demonstrated by rogues level 50+ since they have hide and can snake at a run speed.

If you want had visible proof sneak pullint works take a level 60 rogue with sow and have them pull a single named mob through the entire zone, the say the hooded Dhampyr from the fountin in MM to zone with only him being agro.

Canoing Verix for VP keys I would tag Verix (or the ph usually) and run past all his guards and end up at the group with only the single pull.

I would say at 60 a rogue has a better chance of pulling a single but no 'try again' button.

related to the topic (hes talking about what OP asks, that invis or sneak after fding mem blurs the mob)

Zenthan, I really like the idea in you post but I don't think it confirms a successful Mem'blur. Much as an inviso cast on someone FD doesn't remove them from the hate list. That one ( the inviso while FD to distance agro pull ) I have played around with and has been a great long distance pull method. ie argo roamer, have someone outside agro range inviso you, get up run and then drop inviso and mob is off like a shot after you ( with old world agro, Kunark and Veli agro has the lazy arse mob factor as I call it, things that are still agro'ed on you but won't waste the energy to beat on you unless you get back into a decent range where they don't have to run as far ).

Here this guys describes how it works

Here is how it works....

1) Pull mobs....
2) make sure you gain distance from the Mobs home point.
3) Feign Death
4) Hit SNEAK.. (yes you can do this while FD)....

What this immediatly does is reduces your Agro radius thereby giving you More room to work
with.

5) Wait for the mobs to leave. yes wait til the last one starts to walk off.
6) Then stand and move backwards... if you see both Mobs turn.. FD again... and Remain
Sneaking..

What you'll notice is about half the time the mob who was farther will immediatly turn and leave
while the closer one hovers over you (especially if you've clocked him)... When he does this and
the other guy is gone... Bring in the loner...

Again this also works for clearing agro... A mob forgets about you based on your proximity... if
you use Sneak while doing Pop N drops, you in effect put more distance between you and him...
thereby increasing your chance of a MEMORY Wipe...

While using Pop N drop techniques, combined with a Good Sneak skill. I've never,,, and I repeat
never had to do more than 6 Pop N Drops to get a Mem Wipe.... even on mobs in Sebilis,
Protectors of Zek, and Hate/Fear....

However if you fail an FD, you have to basically repeat the process.....

Patience is key, and some mobs can Hover a while.(like freaking 20 minutes in Hate) Sometimes
doing a /q is quicker. So this sin't the end all be all of clearing agro, but it's one very sweet way to
stay in game and achieve the desired results.

well theres another guide that describes sneak pulling as

Sneak Pulling
This trick can give you an added faction bonus. If you get some NPCs with their backs facing you, you may be able to pull them with the same chance of chain agro as you would get had you pulled non KoS mobs. Yes, there is a chance others will chain agro, but the odds are lowered, and the conditions for the NPCs to chain will be higher. In places where the chain agro mobs are a lower level then you, this could work well. If one mob is facing you, you can pull off a sneak and proxy pull which could very well lead to an amazing split.

and

Splitting with Sneak. This has become a tactic of mine as I've been pulling with the assistance of pacify in a few spots. Pathing occasionally will cross a mob over it's neighbor anyways, making the pacify useless (agro range exists, just smaller, if a mob paths over a pacified mob it will agro).

This is for splitting 2 mobs standing next to each other, or at least facing the same direction. Get behind or to the side of the mobs and sneak (obviously). If you need to catch agro just run past them, FD, let them reset then sneak before standing. Once they are indifferent, circle around to the side of them. Which side you go to depends on a few things. Always pick the back mob if they are staggered and facing the same direction number one, and then always pick the higher lvl mob if they are on the same line. Now in the closer one's agro range but out of the farther one's, inch your way into LOS. The nearer one will actually catch you in LOS before the farther one just due to angles. When they finally see you, the center of agro will be on you via proxy agro, so you won't catch the far one's eye that way. ALSO, and more importantly... You will still con indifferent to the far one, even when the close mob paths right over them. Wait for the mob to path past them, then pull away. For slightly staggered mobs you can even be in the far one's agro range if you remain behind them during the initial agro. Just walk away from both of them staying out of the far one's LOS until the close one is to you then move. Do not stop sneaking until you are well clear of the agro, it slows you down a touch, but getting hit won't break sneak. Weird thing is, I've even fought something solo within agro range of a second just keeping sneak on through the fight... didn't get the add, not sure why it doesn't break (yes the mob I was fighting was still out of assist range though, assist range is smaller on drogmars I think I was fighting they were lt blue and green). Conned the one I thought would add during the fight and it was still indiff. May have been a freak occurance, who knows.

That said, sneak is pretty much working as inteded as those guys describes on those 2000-2002 posts

[Brocode]

and if not enough theres a good post about how rogues do it

http://web.archive.org/web/200401091...icID=108.topic

[Daldaen]

No it's not. This quote here shows why:

Here is how it works....

1) Pull mobs....
2) make sure you gain distance from the Mobs home point.
3) Feign Death
4) Hit SNEAK.. (yes you can do this while FD)....

What this immediatly does is reduces your Agro radius thereby giving you More room to work with.

5) Wait for the mobs to leave. yes wait til the last one starts to walk off.
6) Then stand and move backwards... if you see both Mobs turn.. FD again... and Remain Sneaking..

What you'll notice is about half the time the mob who was farther will immediatly turn and leave while the closer one hovers over you (especially if you've clocked him)... When he does this and the other guy is gone... Bring in the loner...

Again this also works for clearing agro... A mob forgets about you based on your proximity... if you use Sneak while doing Pop N drops, you in effect put more distance between you and him... thereby increasing your chance of a MEMORY Wipe...

While using Pop N drop techniques, combined with a Good Sneak skill. I've never,,, and I repeat never had to do more than 6 Pop N Drops to get a Mem Wipe.... even on mobs in Sebilis, Protectors of Zek, and Hate/Fear....

However if you fail an FD, you have to basically repeat the process.....

Patience is key, and some mobs can Hover a while.(like freaking 20 minutes in Hate) Sometimes doing a /q is quicker. So this sin't the end all be all of clearing agro, but it's one very sweet way to stay in game and achieve the desired results.

The Bolded section is the issue. On P99 it's 100% guaranteed that the mobs will NOT turn on you forcing a second FD.

Also it mentions the memory blur which I haven't experienced at all with Necro FD. There should be a progressive chance to men blur mobs. I haven't noticed any mob mem blur unless it's allowed to fully reset (in which case it's a 100%).

And the Sneak pulling with a weapon post you quote and question if it is correct, keep in mind that post was updated in 2002, and early 2002 they changed sneak to drop when you threw a projectile. Which he makes note of by saying "recent change to sneak".


So no. It doesn't work correctly on P99. Sneak shouldn't be 100% blur on mobs walking r away. The blur chance is a percentage that increases with successive sneaks (60% on first FD like 94% on 6th) and is irrelevant to sneak.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On P99 it's 100% guaranteed that the mobs will NOT turn on you forcing a second FD.

I will wait until you actually use FD here with your newly minted lvl 17 monk before you can say things like this!

Mobs def sometimes force you to use FD a second time....sometimes a third time...

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will wait until you actually use FD here with your newly minted lvl 17 monk before you can say things like this!

Mobs def sometimes force you to use FD a second time....sometimes a third time...

Not when you have sneak in and they have begun to path back.

[Brocode]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not when you have sneak in and they have begun to path back.

What you describe is right Daldaen where that monk describes but it doesnt kill the hate list from mob, meaning if he hasnt full pathed to his spawn point theres a chance that once you remove sneak he will insta aggro, atleast this has happened to me, but as they say on the info its all about PROXIMITY if you are far enough, feels like a insta blur as they wont charge on you if you are far enough, meaning the hate list only counts if your still in aggro range maybe? Also on safehouse he describes that sneak negates any chain aggro as if the mobs call for help is ignored or shrinked as those cannot see you.

[Raev]

We don't need a massive bug discussion here; we already had one.

1. Sneak in this era should drop on ranged attack. It was changed in Luclin or PoP or so. It used to drop here, then it was changed to not drop based on Autumn Dawnfire's guide posted in 2000 . . . but edited in 2002. Daldaen made an excellent catch there, but we didn't change it back because we didn't have ranged weapon delay/collision. Now we do.

2. I think the necro post in that thread I linked is pretty good evidence that sneak/invis/hide should prevent reaggro. We can talk more about it, but what is clearly wrong is 'sneak/invis/hide perform a guaranteed blur'. That really needs to go.

[Colgate]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also it mentions the memory blur which I haven't experienced at all with Necro FD. There should be a progressive chance to men blur mobs. I haven't noticed any mob mem blur unless it's allowed to fully reset (in which case it's a 100%).

i have seen a necro FD mem blur on mobs that were nowhere near their spawn point as recent as yesterday on red99