My America

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Liberty is what they have in Iraq, but we don’t have here… or little of. Liberty is, for instance, the ability to bear arms at any time and any place, loaded, so to defend ones friends, family and neighbors. In Iraq they can pretty much carry full-auto assault most anyplace they go. In the US you are lucky to have a semi-auto from before the ban, and locked up. In Canada… lol like 4% have a handgun.

Liberty is basically, in this case, having the ability to meet your obligation to others, by your own free will and choosing, by whatever means to whatever ends. Personal firearms is something that needs to be removed before a government can take all freedoms away from the people when it wills to; but it is government which should not be free. Yes liberty is much more, but this answer is specific to my post that you were replying to. For the broader understanding of our Liberty in the US, one needs to read the US Constitution… w/o special interpretation but literal. The founders had it right, as well as could be governed by man at least.

Im still struggling with this issue. I used to be a staunch supporter of weapon bans of any kind, until i was attacked 3 times in 6 months in the subway. Now i carry a knife. I differ in that from most people from the left i guess.

But that leaves also other areas with big question marks. Like people showing up with automatic rifles at rallies of the kind i join sometimes in Canada, just to intimidate people. Columbine doesnt happen often in Canada because its alot harder to get access to these kinds of weapons. So im still struggling about where i stand on this issue.

Liberty is also for me freedom of association and freedom of speech, freedom of movement which we are seeing being repressed in lots of western countries at this point in time. All the simple things that are in the american constitution, canadian charter of rights and freedoms, UN declaration of human rights, thats liberty to me. Its more than that, but those are the basics.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by ShadowWulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What IS liberty? I am rather interested in your definition.

Originally Posted by Taxi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Im still struggling with this issue. I used to be a staunch supporter of weapon bans of any kind, until i was attacked 3 times in 6 months in the subway. Now i carry a knife. I differ in that from most people from the left i guess.

But that leaves also other areas with big question marks. Like people showing up with automatic rifles at rallies of the kind i join sometimes in Canada, just to intimidate people. Columbine doesnt happen often in Canada because its alot harder to get access to these kinds of weapons. So im still struggling about where i stand on this issue.

Liberty is also for me freedom of association and freedom of speech, freedom of movement which we are seeing being repressed in lots of western countries at this point in time. All the simple things that are in the american constitution, canadian charter of rights and freedoms, UN declaration of human rights, thats liberty to me. Its more than that, but those are the basics.

I wouldn't say it's a left or right issue regarding gun ownership. I'm not sure why it would matter.

But to put it in general about liberty, it is the conduit to freedom. So like a sailor has the freedom to go ashore and get himself a prostitute, but only at liberty of doing so. There may be freedoms, but limited liberty to exercise those freedoms... to a point of making it not free any longer.

And yes, I have been assaulted a number of times, I grew up in LA. I think that when we live a sheltered existence, we disassociate ourselves with reality; to what is really going on in the world around us. It should effect us when others come to harm, especially if they could have prevented it. Cops cant be there for us at all times, but I can be there for my neighbor, and have.

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wouldn't say it's a left or right issue regarding gun ownership. I'm not sure why it would matter.

Because alot of people on the left regard NRA type people as gun nuts, and alot are, like the guy who shot a 16 year old exchange student on halloween because she stepped on his property.

But again as i said, im conflicted because i tend to agree with people like you who make a case that people have a right to defend themselves on principle, but i do have alot of reservations.

[Taxi]

This is part of why i agree with people like daywolf on self-defense issues:

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Garment workers protests in Bengladesh this week

[astarothel]

My stance on firearms:

A semi-automatic weapon, or weapons with semi-automatic capabilities (especially rifles) or better are not civilian weapons. Play with them at a range all you want, but I don't think I want these belong anywhere in a residence.

Weapons registration is a no brainer. I don't care how inconvenient it is, the excuse that criminals don't have to register their guns doesn't float with me. law enforcement officials should be able to pull up that sort of thing. If Jimbo is involved in a domestic disturbance with his wife, if I were the police I think I'd like to know if he has any registered firearms ahead of time.

The screening process and background check on firearms needs to be improved dramatically, especially for concealable firearms. I don't care if it takes an extra month, the current process needs to be improved in both Canada and the US. I do not feel that there are many cases where firearm is needed as quickly as they are available. Self-defense in the event a person feels threatened isn't a great reason in and of itself. The reason I say this is that a person getting a firearm for self defense won't have the training and judgment required to use it properly. This ties in to my next point.

Everyone that owns a gun thinks they know how to use it well or properly.
A large number of these people are wrong. The firearms safety course should be 1) mandatory in all states, and 2) more extensive. Retakes on the safety course should be required (maybe not yearly but every so often) for renewing your license. Wish I could find the clip from tv I saw a while ago (from 60 Minutes I think) that proved this. I will look for it later.

[astarothel]

I am not a massive Real News Network Fan.
I am however a massive Steve Paikin fan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCWNq...layer_embedded

[ShadowWulf]

For self defense:

In no first world country (or most others for that matter) which allows guns is the right to use them in self defense intended to apply to the government, no matter how severe the mistreatment. Those are the simple (and proven) facts on the matter. Even if the cops in the picture above had been shot by a concerned citizen, i guarantee you in this and that society the shooter would be dead.

If the goverment came to take your guns, illegally or not, and you shot first you are in the wrong under modern day laws. Period. Its the corner youre driven into.

The only use people who claim they are self defense weapons against a government is for violent, armed overthrow, not defense.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Taxi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Garment workers protests in Bengladesh this week

Government should fear the people. It's when they don't this becomes the norm at some point. It also works for people fearing the people, as who really sets out to potentially get killed for little to nothing? The greater the risk, the less of it happening. Sort of like MAD, blowing up the world is probably not the best course of action etc. The hidden danger is even more of a deterrent, because you don't know who is packing heat, find oneself outgunned by 20 random people lol

And even in the case of riot police, one would expect them to then behave. But too the protesters would possibly behave in the first place as non-protesters can settle matters as well, if need be. Even in California, it only went so far with the LA riots, as most of us had our scanners on and fresh ammo just in case it spilled over. But they wound up burning their own neighborhoods down... heh then wondering why business decided to not come back. LA just sucks, let it burn.

[ShadowWulf]

I'm posting from my phone so ill be very brief. I find it fascinating how ones definition is singularly focused on one issue, yet some would define liberty as persuing happiness and success, with or without a weapon, yet not hinge their definition on the ability or carry a full auto assault rifle since outside all but the most utterly extreme of circumstances such a weapon acts as a method of life and liberty denier to another.

For the record I own weapons and have posted myself at the range in another thread here. However in no way do they define me or guide my acts in persuit of freedom.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by ShadowWulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm posting from my phone so ill be very brief. I find it fascinating how ones definition is singularly focused on one issue, yet some would define liberty as persuing happiness and success, with or without a weapon, yet not hinge their definition on the ability or carry a full auto assault rifle since outside all but the most utterly extreme of circumstances such a weapon acts as a method of life and liberty denier to another.

I'm not sure how that applies. I don't have the time to write up every application of liberty. I even wrote more than you did... one along the same lines to what you were replying to (my post about gun rights etc), and another in general terms.

As for liberty and happiness, they have different meanings. I assume you are referring to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Happiness is not guaranteed, can't leave out the pursuit part. If all the same word, they would have just used one. "Success" is not a part of the founding documents. What happiness is is self-determined, or should be.

Weapons do not act as anything, people do. I'm all for open concealment, it gives the "people do" second thoughts about violating someones rights or life. But first goes liberty and then goes rights, lastly you have a government trying to take care of you of which it is incapable of doing but only harming you if anything. I live near the southern border, so full-auto would be fine by me; maybe not needed today but shit happens eventually. I should have access to that if I wish, it's a constitutional right but with no liberty any longer. Yet someone in LA can get one illegally, but law abiding citizens cant. It's cockeyed.