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#1
06-29-2010, 07:29 PM
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#2
06-29-2010, 08:43 PM
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However, you like me are a descendant of those who died defending against known, direct and overt harm. Korea and Vietnam however, as with Panama, the Gulf, and several others are NOT the same fight, they are NOT fought for the same reason. They are, and have been admitted to be, false and totally political or money making ventures. These actions do NOT serve the people but rather by their propagation, frequency and propaganda behind them serve to instead reinforce extreme nationalism, xenophobia, and fear. You hold your head high for "serving" but it seems more by your ancestors actions do you hold yourself by. As of yet you have not, to my knowledge, done anything to directly defend and aid the people of America, outside the very few who directly profiteered from the actions via a bank statement. I have nothing but respect for those who quietly serve acting silently yet critically in defense of their country (whatever country that may be FYI) but to harp upon passive acts of service as if it makes you a better judge of freedom or liberty, or to constantly remind people of your "status" is worthy of maybe not contempt but surely derision.
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I have to many alts...
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#3
06-29-2010, 08:50 PM
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Its on a permanent war economy and as soon as enemy du jour #1 is down, another is picked to take its place. Thats my main gripe, if the US was getting attacked and foreign tanks were in US streets, id probably head down there and help you guys fight. But i cant think of a US war i could support since WW2. | |||
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#4
06-29-2010, 08:55 PM
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It does beg the question of Sierra Leone, the Congo, and several other places that could actually HONESTLY use a hand that have been not only neglected but actively buried, burned and forgotten by the majority of the Public and Press in the western world.
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I have to many alts...
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#5
06-29-2010, 08:58 PM
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Jesus, Shadowwulf, do you even have the slightest inkling of the history of the Korean war? And while I'm not going to try to defend Vietnam, which was mis-guided, massively mis-managed and completely mis-understood by almost everyone, have you ever wondered why it is that Taxi even has a 'Vietnamese neighbor?' Why so many of us have so many Vietnamese neighbors? Ask them some time.
It's because the North Vietnamese communists, who many in my generation hailed as 'freedom fighters', in the end turned out to the murderous thugs that almost every communist government turns out to be, and as a result a boatload (literally) of people in South Vietnam were willing to risk their lives and lose everything they had to get the hell out of there (and come here) once the communists took over. Double ditto for Cambodia. I could almost deal with your incredibly simplistic world view, but the underlying ignorance you guys display makes it hopeless to even try to engage in a hostile dialogue. Going to the quote well one last time, Churchill (he's in Wikipedia if you don't know who he is), once called Mussolini a 'utensil.' He could only have described you idiots as 'sporks.' Have fun; link a youtube video or something.
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Anciente the lucky dwarf
Blindlemon - it's Blind lemon, not Blindle mon | ||
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#6
06-29-2010, 09:08 PM
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The sole reason why there was a south/north vietnam, and north/south Korea is because the US prevented re-unification in both countries. Ho Chi Minh was an american admirer and based his insurrection against the French colonialists on the american war of liberation against Britain. Im tired but if you want ill look up the facts on why those are true and post them later on. | |||
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#7
06-29-2010, 09:24 PM
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Ho was a communist before WW II. You might have to dig a little further than Wikipedia to get the real story on this one, but I am familiar with the myths.
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Anciente the lucky dwarf
Blindlemon - it's Blind lemon, not Blindle mon | |||
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#8
06-29-2010, 09:36 PM
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https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~e...dence-DRV.html ------------- Ho Chi Minh's Speech, Ba Dinh Square, September 2, 1945 "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free. The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights." These are undeniable truths. Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice. In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty. They have enforced inhuman laws; they have set up three distinct political regimes in the North, the Center, and the South of Viet-Nam in order to wreck our national unity and prevent our people from being united. They have built more prisons than schools. They have mercilessly slain our patriots; they have drowned our uprisings in rivers of blood. They have fettered public opinion; they have practiced obscurantism against our people. To weaken our race they have forced us to use opium and alcohol. In the field of economics, they have fleeced us to the backbone, impoverished our people and devastated our land. They have robbed us of our rice fields, our mines, our forests, and our raw materials. They have monopolized the issuing of bank notes and the export trade. They have invented numerous unjustifiable taxes and reduced our people, especially our peasantry, to a state of extreme poverty. They have hampered the prospering of our national bourgeoisie; they have mercilessly exploited our workers. In the autumn of 1940, when the Japanese fascists violated Indochina's territory to establish new bases in their fight against the Allies, the French imperialists went down on their bended knees and handed over our country to them. Thus, from that date, our people were subjected to the double yoke of the French and the Japanese. Their sufferings and miseries increased. The result was that, from the end of last year to the beginning of this year, from Quang Tri Province to the North of Viet-Nam, more than two million of our fellow citizens died from starvation. On March 9 [1945], the French troops were disarmed by the Japanese. The French colonialists either fled or surrendered, showing that not only were they incapable of "protecting" us, but that, in the span of five years, they had twice sold our country to the Japanese. On several occasions before March 9, the Viet Minh League urged the French to ally themselves with it against the Japanese. Instead of agreeing to this proposal, the French colonialists so intensified their terrorist activities against the Viet Minh members, that before fleeing they massacred a great number of our political prisoners detained at Yen Bay and Cao Bang. Notwithstanding all this, our fellow citizens have always manifested toward the French a tolerant and humane attitude. Even after the Japanese Putsch of March, 1945, the Viet Minh League helped many Frenchmen to cross the frontier, rescued some of them from Japanese jails, and protected French lives and property. From the autumn of 1940, our country had in fact ceased to be a French colony and had become a Japanese possession. After the Japanese had surrendered to the Allies, our whole people rose to regain our national sovereignty and to found the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam. The truth is that we have wrested our independence from the Japanese and not from the French. The French have fled, the Japanese have capitulated, Emperor Bao Dai has abdicated. Our people have broken the chains which for nearly a century have fettered them and have won independence for the Fatherland. Our people at the same time have overthrown the monarchic regime that has reigned supreme for dozens of centuries. In its place has been established the present Democratic Republic. For these reasons, we, members of the Provisional Government, representing the whole Vietnamese people, declare that from now on we break off all relations of a colonial character with France; we repeal all the international obligations that France has so far subscribed to on behalf of Viet-Nam, and we abolish all the special rights the French have unlawfully acquired in our Fatherland. The whole Vietnamese people, animated by a common purpose, are determined to fight to the bitter end against any attempt by the French colonialists to reconquer their country. We are convinced that the Allied nations, which at Teheran and San Francisco have acknowledged the principles of self-determination and equality of nations, will not refuse to acknowledge the independence of Viet-Nam. A people who have courageously opposed French domination for more than eighty years, a people who have fought side by side with the Allies against the fascists during these last years, such a people must be free and independent. For these reasons, we, members of the Provisional Government of the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam, solemnly declare to the world that Viet-Nam has the right to be a free and independent country - and in fact it is so already. The entire Vietnamese people are determined to mobilize all their physical and mental strength, to sacrifice their lives and property in order to safe guard their independence and liberty. Source: Ho Chi Minh, Selected Works (Hanoi: Foreign Languages Publishing House, 1977). | |||
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Last edited by Taxi; 06-29-2010 at 09:53 PM..
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#9
06-29-2010, 09:55 PM
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By the way, you're right the that U.S. was involved in the partition of Korea, but it took two to tango, just as it did in Europe. The alternative would have been communist rule of all of Korea, just as the alternative in Europe would have been communist rule of all of Germany (for example). I'm sure that would have been ok with you, but I suspect a large number of Koreans (and Germans) would have had a problem with that arrangement.
Vietnam is a little more complicated, but the real source of the problem there, post-war, was the French insistence that they have all of their colonies returned to them, even though they had collaborated with the occupiers (the Japanese in that case). I will concede that the U.S. violated the Geneva accords in regard to re-unification (of course they hadn't signed them), and that was not a stellar moment in our history, and our subsequent history in Vietnam (even just politically) has a lot of ugly spots. No argument. But... what would have happened had the accords been carried out at the time? What is clear is that the majority of people in the South Vietnam of 1955 did NOT want the communists to take over (a lot of them had fled the north), and chances are that what happened in 1975 would simply have happened in 1955, with the caveat that the majority would likely have had nowhere to go and there would have been that many more executions and that much more 're-education' and imprisonment. What actually happened in those intervening 20 years makes all of that moot, but I don't think anybody at the time anticipated all that was going to happen. Yes, we were trying to establish our 'influence' in various places around the world, but.... ...what has been almost completely forgotten, or ruthlessly mocked, over the years is the fact that the communists really were out to take over the world. They made no secret of it (See Krushchev / UN ). And they were almost universally pretty bad guys. With the possible exception of Yugoslavia, virtually every communist government in the history of the world has ended up being incredibly oppressive and ruthlessly violent towards any opposition. The Che's and the Trotsky's (the 'true believers') end up dead and the Stalins and the Maos end up in charge, and it ain't pleasant for whatever countries they ended up owning. Read the history of communism FROM the BEGINNING please, before you want to discount that threat. So, in 1955, it is not unreasonable to make a case that we were at least trying to do the right thing - not just for us but for our allies and other peoples of the world - by opposing communist expansion. You can argue the results - you can argue the tactics and methods and I would end up conceding points in that discussion. But you can't take this incredibly simplistic view of world history since WW II as some vast American plot to line our pockets and expect anyone with half a brain to take you seriously. We got from Korea... what was it again? We got from Vietnam... forgot that one too. If we were the bad guys - who were the good guys? It's never that simple.
__________________
Anciente the lucky dwarf
Blindlemon - it's Blind lemon, not Blindle mon | ||
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