First Aggro + 15

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The people camping it would sit on the spawn spamming bard AOE damage songs

Also if you already have 15 in the zone in anticipation for the spawn, you are in a much better position strategically to get first aggro. You don't need to wait for 15 to zone in, or port, or to log in ect. You are there, in force, ready.

This rule wouldn't change anything. FFA would just make camping worse. Not better.

How different the world must be from your perspective where 6-12 horus of camping is worse than 96 hours of camping!

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How different the world must be from your perspective where 6-12 horus of camping is worse than 96 hours of camping!

6 to 12 hours of active camping with 50+ per group isn't a massive improvement over 15 per group semi-afk camping for a longer period of time. It is the act of camping itself which is the issue.

[Wrei]

This is why I stated previously that in order to cease campers the mobs needs to be put on an even longer variance. Make the bosses pop + or - a month and if that fails (by people going ultra retard), then increase it to + or - 2 months [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] , if they are willing to wait 2months 24/7 then they DESERVE the loot. On a serious note, I'm not sure why we can't try full FFA. Trying it for a couple of weeks won't kill the server...

[girth]

Originally Posted by Wrei [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On a serious note, I'm not sure why we can't try full FFA. Trying it for a couple of weeks won't kill the server...

Cause the GM's want it their way even though they do not raid. They want us to come up with some kind of system that doesn't involve them which just is not going to happen. No matter what, there will be people/guilds that cross the line.

[girth]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

6 to 12 hours of active camping with 50+ per group isn't a massive improvement over 15 per group semi-afk camping for a longer period of time. It is the act of camping itself which is the issue.

No. No its not. The issue is not being able to play 85% of the time because you have to be the first 15 in a zone to claim a boss.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. No its not. The issue is not being able to play 85% of the time because you have to be the first 15 in a zone to claim a boss.

6 Targets* 12 hours variance -- 72 hours. Now assuming that's total hours per week, no windows overlap, thats 60% of a week. That's assuming 24/7. Cut it down to playable hours and it only gets worse.

First 15 relies upon camping. So does this proposal.

[G13]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

6 Targets* 12 hours variance -- 72 hours. Now assuming that's total hours per week, no windows overlap, thats 60% of a week. That's assuming 24/7. Cut it down to playable hours and it only gets worse.

First 15 relies upon camping. So does this proposal.

You know I keep reading these threads and it's the same shit over and over.

So I'm just gonna say it

Even FFA would rely upon camping. It won't stop the smart guilds from devising ways to be in the best position possible to get the mobs. That's being there when they spawn. At the ready. Hence "camping"

None of you people get it still. The logical conclusion to all of these different proposals, tactics, from IB starting the camping thing by using druids to camp in shifts so their entire guild didn't have to, all have to come to this point. If you want mobs you have to camp them. Want to stop guilds from doing it? I guess either try to KS them, or call timers, or roll call them. More than one guild going to camp a mob? Have bards in shifts spamming AOE song to catch first aggro, batphone/guild at the ready.

This is why I continue to scratch my head when IB says "FFA will save teh raids!". They were the ones who started the abnormal camping methods in the first place. I really don't understand why they bitch about camping so much now. They sure didn't have a problem with it when their druids were doing it for them and they could be logged off doing other shit. Must have been nice huh guys.

Nobody seems to remember this who is in their guild for some reason. Now that their entire guild has to do what their druids were doing for months, suddenly it's "cheap". Every time Alawen brings his kleenex to a thread I want to scream at the guy "YOU camped mobs for 6 months 12 hours a day. Please STFU"

They were the ones who proposed variance. They were the ones, along with a few other guilds that created the current raiding rules. Now everyone is going apeshit trying to figure out what to do because people are actually willing to camp the boss mobs. You think this is going to get better in Kunark? It's going to get worse. Trakanon anyone? VP keys anyone? We have only seen the tip of the iceberg.

In reality, Everquest is an extremely flawed game. It was a good idea, but other MMos have vastly improved upon the genre. The nostalgia of the old raiding scene is skewed. People handled it differently from server to server. No 2 servers were really alike to be honest. You have 5-6 mobs a week right now. A WEEK. All of them are pushovers. None of the loot except for a select few items are jaw dropping. People pass the time by bitching at each other on the forums. Kunark isn't even going to be out until probably next year anyways. The current raiding guilds will be burned out long before then, so none of these mobs, and none of this shit even matters right now. How is sky going to be handled? FFA? First 15? Seriously?

The end game here has been a dick waving contest since day one. It's been basically IB waving their dick in everyone's face and trying to one up the server until another guild decided to step it up to as far as you can possibly take this. I don't even blame IB for doing it, I just wish they would have handled it better instead of rubbing it in everyone's face with shit eating grins. It created this massive ego stalemate between both guilds now which is a shame.

First nobody but IB could really even kill the bosses. They never had a chance to practice indefinitely without another guild hassling them and calling timers for months like IB did, You have to remember the first two guilds were on a rotation. They could wipe, retry, wipe, retry. Other guilds haven't had that luxury. They had to adapt to survive. It really annoys me when I see these noobs who have never done a damn thing or even TRY to kill a mob come in here and try to dictate new raid rules. Or some scrub recruit from one guild or another try and dictate shit. They don't have a clue.

It takes a lot of effort, organization, morale boosting, leadership, ect. to hold together a raiding guild. I give a lot of credit to the leadership of both DA and IB. They have worked their asses off. Their members have worked their asses off. It's hard fucking work to kill shit on this server. Camping is nothing. Try getting 30 min timer called on you as soon as Vox spawns. Get your raid together, pull the trash, buff, and kill Vox within 30 minutes. One mistake and it's a potential wipe. If none of you can do this for Vox, how are you going to do it for Trakanon.

I haven't seen any of you fuckers organize your guilds and even attempt to call a timer on DA or IB. Divinity maybe once or twice. Remedy? Fuck no. All they do is farm trash in the planes over and over. GC? lol. WI? Whatever. Trans? They made a few half hearted attempts at druid tracking but their guild never gave a fuck even enough to login for a batphone. Poopsocking had nothing to do with it. Am I missing anyone? Dutchmasters? Who

As far as I'm concerned the only people that deserve to create new raiding rules are the 2 guilds that have actually raided. The two guilds that have put in the time, effort, organization, mobilization, tracking, and raiding. IB and DA. The rest of you scrubs can fuck off. You've never done jack shit to earn the right. You never challenged IB. You never even tried. You were too chickenshit or lazy to put any effort into organizing yourselves and getting kills. Not even a druid/batphone setup to call ONE timer or roll call. Not once. Now you want to create new raid rules? No fucking thank you. I don't care for IB's methods, or the trolling by a select few of their members, but I respect the effort they have put into getting their mobs. The rest of you are useless. This server could have had a much better raiding environment if you people had organized even a little bit and contested some mobs. Called some timers. Made shit interesting. But you rolled over like a bunch of pussies and are now whining and bitching on the forums talking shit. Well guess what. IB and DA are getting to experience the Gods and Dragons, grabbing the loot and you guys are holding your dicks.

Yea I said it because I'm sick of this shit. Nothing is going to change. Stop making these threads pretending like shit is going to change, and you know wtf you are talking about. Stop talking and start DOING something in game. I imagine raiding sucks when you've killed your 2549th Shiverback or Loathing Lich and have yet to engage one boss. in 9 months. When DA and IB decide to stop raiding you guys can go plant your fucking tulips, hold hands and dance in a circle, and do your rotation thing or something.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stupid stuff.

You know, I would say your forum handle must be your age after that word vomit of uselessness, but the punctuation in your commentary suggests otherwise so I digress. Dumesh and I have been in and leading raiding guilds that raided 5+ days a week since Kunark. I know he speaks from a place of vast experience in the raiding world of Everquest.

NOTHING about this server or this content is new, hard, or intriguing; so acting like your guild is the first and best at what it does with 10+ year old content is a good way for you to look like a fool on this forum and little else.

So why don't you either go to the RnF forums and continue your tirade, or reread the first post and begin offering constructive criticism or commentary that will help bring an end to all these threads and come up with a functioning proper set of raid rules that will be sustainable through all the content that this server is going to release.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shit.

Would having an IB or DA tag above my head make you take me any more seriously? No, not really.

Either tag above my head would just result in the other side flinging shit for that. You'd accuse me of being an IB lapdog for preferring druid tracking, and then now you shit on me lumping me in with guilds that don't put forth an effort to call timers or put in time.

Make up your fucking mind.

I put forth a raid proposal that you came out and said you thought could work (Suicide Kings), and then here you are pissing all over me when I was disproving FFA's claim shortened raid target windows would free up 85% of the time from camping.

Make up your fucking mind.

You cry about what IB did for months when druid tracking was always done on live. Why? Because if your guild didn't do it, you'd never know when a target was up. Abnormal camping methods are a tracking druid? Claim camping is inevitable, then say that there is no difference between one person tracking and dropping fifteen campers in a zone. There's about 14 people difference last I checked.

You are out of your fucking mind.

Keep thinking IB is terrible and solely responsible for the raiding situation and that DA's shit doesn't stink. If you exclude every guild except IB and DA, that makes DA 50% of the problem.

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It really annoys me when I see these noobs who have never done a damn thing or even TRY to kill a mob come in here and try to dictate new raid rules. Or some scrub recruit from one guild or another try and dictate shit. They don't have a clue.

A clue is not required to see that the current state of raiding is absurd.
A guild could have competed with IB when it comes to mobilization if they got their shit together. Some in DA even admitted that they couldn't compete mobilization-wise with IB in another thread. The evolution of raiding DA chose, camping, killed competition more than a single tracking druid ever did or could have.

Sitting 15+ people in a zone (or more if raid people target windows are shortened) and waiting to see which group's bards dissonance magically aggros a spawning mob first doesn't take any sort of skill, or any sort of finesse. It's not even competition, it's just whichever bard takes it to the face first.

I play to compete. I will join a raiding guild that makes an impact when I feel that reasonable competition is possible. Right now it's a fucking sausagefest at the safespot, and as I stated earlier DA is 50% of the problem -- stop trying to make it seem like this is all IB's fault.

[G13]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would having an IB or DA tag above my head make you take me any more seriously? No, not really.

Either tag above my head would just result in the other side flinging shit for that. You'd accuse me of being an IB lapdog for preferring druid tracking, and then now you shit on me lumping me in with guilds that don't put forth an effort to call timers or put in time.

I never accused you of anything genius. I wasn't even talking directly to you in my post. Your quote was just another example of the stupidity that is this thread, and other threads just like it. I was actually agreeing with you. These people are bickering over semantics that all lead to the same conclusion. Camping.

I put forth a raid proposal that you came out and said you thought could work (Suicide Kings), and then here you are pissing all over me when I was disproving FFA's claim shortened raid target windows would free up 85% of the time from camping.

I never said SK could work. You still don't get it and you never will. No proposal is ever going to work. Get that through your head. Here, let me make it simple.

FFA = camping cluserfuck. KS clusterfuck. Training clusterfuck

Current Rules = Camping clusterfuck

This first 15 to aggro = completely exploitable. Competing guilds camping the spawn point with bard AOE. Rogean called to every boss fight to determine "who got first aggro". Yea sounds like a fun.

This COULD be an interesting raid scene if the other guilds would actually DO something instead of farming froggy crowns and planar trash for once. It's like nobody has read the rules or wants to devise ways to compete in the current system. You all act like you have to camp or something to get mobs. You don't. You just have to be there when they spawn. You can call timers. You can roll call. No camping is needed. Nobody does it though. They don't even try. They don't check on other guild's positions and try to take advantage of a situation when they make a mistake. They don't roll call. They don't call timers. Apply pressure. Nothing.

None of you jackasses truly understand what Nilbog has been saying. Make up your own raiding system that is manageable. I.E one that doesn't involve Nilbog. FFA would involve Nilbog every time a mob spawned. The current system for the most part leave the GMs out of it apparently. Nobody wants to think outside the box though. You all want to create a raiding system that is hindered by the glaring flaws of the game. That is never going to work. Go ahead and speak of the good ole days. it doesn't change the fact that EQ end game is pathetic and broken beyond repair. As MMO players, we've far outgrown this type of game with such limited content. It's painfully obvious.

It could be fixed, but it would take radical ideas that every guild would have to agree on for the overall health of the server. We could create a system that is competitive, fun, and challenging. Won't happen though. Want to know why? Because people in IB and DA just want to kill mobs and get their loot. They don't care how. How doesn't matter. All that matters is they get their kills. I'm not saying anything positive or negative in relation to that. It is just the simple truth. That's why I said before the only way shit is going to change is if DA and IB create new raid rules. Because it's FACT.

You cry about what IB did for months when druid tracking was always done on live. Why? Because if your guild didn't do it, you'd never know when a target was up. Abnormal camping methods are a tracking druid? Claim camping is inevitable, then say that there is no difference between one person tracking and dropping fifteen campers in a zone. There's about 14 people difference last I checked.

14 people is nothing. You are acting like this is a major feat for 2 groups to log out in WC and get ported or something. Seriously, you people need to stop with this shit. It is not some insane mobilization skill to use a potion of the frost or log out at a spire/ring. End that charade please. You are not some super skilled mobilization guild because you port people from a druid ring in WC.

I don't remember crying about IB doing anything anyways. I stated the facts. Not every server had a rotating druid with batphone either. Sure there were some trackers, but we didn't have mass txt messaging like we do today. It wasn't the norm. It was more like, go check the spawn, if you could even get in the zone. You couldn't just zone into Fear and see if Cazic was up. I don't think you realize it, but back in the day you couldn't actually track Innoruuk from the zone line either. You didn't know that did you. SOE wasn't stupid.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=68

This guy remembers it like I do.

I know that in the past I could not track Inny from zone in. If I remember oorrectly, Inny was only trackable from the tier 2 area

Which is absolutely correct. Don't want people camping Inny? Don't allow him to be tracked from zone in.

I actually think removing tracking in Hate would make it interesting. Sure you could probably stick a rogue there, but put banshees up there all the way so they can't sneak over there. There are a lot of things that could be done to shake things up. Make them interesting, but I doubt it will ever happen. If all these guilds supposedly want "competition" I would imagine they would be completely for these types of ideas. But like I said before, you guys just want your mobs. You just troll up the forums whining about 15 people camping instead of 1 to try and feel better about yourselves. We both know the only thing that mattes is who killed what.

Keep thinking IB is terrible and solely responsible for the raiding situation and that DA's shit doesn't stink. If you exclude every guild except IB and DA, that makes DA 50% of the problem.

I don't think IB is terrible. You're being defensive because you know there is truth in what I say. On the contrary, DA and IB are the only two guilds doing anything on this server worthwhile. The rest of them are useless.

A clue is not required to see that the current state of raiding is absurd.
A guild could have competed with IB when it comes to mobilization if they got their shit together. Some in DA even admitted that they couldn't compete mobilization-wise with IB in another thread. The evolution of raiding DA chose, camping, killed competition more than a single tracking druid ever did or could have.

DA has beaten IB mobilization wise many times. Stop pretending like this isn't true. When IB wiped themselves in Hate, DA was there in force within 5 minutes. IB didn't bow out with dignity either. They cried to the GMs to hand them the zone. The people who wiped them. Vittra, Starklen, Gwence, and a handful of others lied to their officers and then they lied to the GMs to save their sorry asses. In Sol B you got beat by mobilization. In Fear you got beat after you wiped yourselves last week. Then your members proceeded to bug CT to crash the zone. Cyrius had to come in and kill both mobs. DA had claim and their pick of the mob, but nope, IB had to crash the zone.

I wonder why. Wouldn't have anything to do with resetting his loot tables right?

Like I said many times. Any smart guild leader knows that it's better to have 15 in the zone and a guaranteed claim that 1 druid. You can whine about it all you want, but if the lone druid method was better than what we currently have, IB would still be doing it wouldn't they.

Sitting 15+ people in a zone (or more if raid people target windows are shortened) and waiting to see which group's bards dissonance magically aggros a spawning mob first doesn't take any sort of skill, or any sort of finesse. It's not even competition, it's just whichever bard takes it to the face first.

Nothing in this game takes any sort of skill. Get that through your thick head. That's the entire point.

I play to compete. I will join a raiding guild that makes an impact when I feel that reasonable competition is possible. Right now it's a fucking sausagefest at the safespot, and as I stated earlier DA is 50% of the problem -- stop trying to make it seem like this is all IB's fault.

Yea this sounds really heroic. You play to compete or something. There are a lot of people that have been "competing" here a lot longer than you have. IB and DA are not the problem. They are devising strategies and tactics based upon the current raid rules. Scoreboard is all that counts. DA never even wrote these rules or had a hand in creating them. Like it or not, it's a strategic game. Too bad EQ is such a broken game that any scenario, or raid rule will be nothing more than an unspoken rotation at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dumesh and I have been in and leading raiding guilds that raided 5+ days a week since Kunark. .

Nobody gives a fuck what Akame and Dumesh did 10 years ago. Every mfker here has been in a top end raiding guild. The best of the best. You have people from DROW, FOH, Triton, ect. in both DA and IB. You haven't done jack shit here anyways so your opinion is worthless. Do me a favor. Compete with the current guilds. Lead a raid force and rattle the cage a little bit. Use some strategy and tactics. Clear all the trash and engage Vox within 30 minutes and win with 2 guilds breathing down your neck. Kill the drakes on tier 2 in Hate and engage Innoruuk in 20 minutes. Do a WW break in Fear and then clear, buff, pull, and kill Draco in 30 minutes. Then you can come back here and pretend like you know wtf you are talking about.