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Old 11-12-2012, 08:13 PM
Frieza_Prexus Frieza_Prexus is offline
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Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You took the zonewide DT, which does not constitute being put on the agro list. Hence you were not on the agro list.

Scorchin took the DT from CT which is a result of being on the agro list. TMO engaged inbetween Scorchin being on the agro list and Scorchin dieing.

Hence, FTE SHOUT would have called SCORCHIN. Hence FTE would have been SCORCHIN'S if you engaged before he was off the agro list.
As you said yourself, this comes down to a matter of seconds. In this case, undoubtedly, fractions of a second.

The question is simply this: Should the rules allow for a decision maker to make rulings so as to promote fairness as much as possible, or should we operate strictly by the letter of the laws without deviation?

Clearly, we know what the rules are. The question is, what is fair?

Do you believe it would be fair if FE were in TMO's position instead? Would it be fair if the "sniping guild" were in the SE corner of the zone with the "puller" near the engaging raid? Do you believe that there exists any set of circumstances where the guild that is merited FTE by the encounter logs should not be merited the kill?

I believe that fairness demands flexibility and occasional subjective decision making. Perhaps you do not. Both are valid view points, the question is, which do we pursue for the health of the server?

I submit that slavish devotion to the current rules produces inequity and unfairness.
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Tanthallas Tanthallas is offline
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Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As you said yourself, this comes down to a matter of seconds. In this case, undoubtedly, fractions of a second.

The question is simply this: Should the rules allow for a decision maker to make rulings so as to promote fairness as much as possible, or should we operate strictly by the letter of the laws without deviation?

Clearly, we know what the rules are. The question is, what is fair?

Do you believe it would be fair if FE were in TMO's position instead? Would it be fair if the "sniping guild" were in the SE corner of the zone with the "puller" near the engaging raid? Do you believe that there exists any set of circumstances where the guild that is merited FTE by the encounter logs should not be merited the kill?

I believe that fairness demands flexibility and occasional subjective decision making. Perhaps you do not. Both are valid view points, the question is, which do we pursue for the health of the server?

I submit that slavish devotion to the current rules produces inequity and unfairness.
Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.
  #3  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Alarti0001 Alarti0001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.
Wanna trade CT loots for VS loots?
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It's pretty clear he's become one of the people he described as No-life Nerds and Server Bullies.
  #4  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:30 PM
Eccezan Eccezan is offline
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Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:11 PM
Frieza_Prexus Frieza_Prexus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.
Yes, FTE shouts are potentially able to be overturned. Sniping was a concern of Sirken (with CT as the example too), and the suggested solution is to make them informative but non-binding.

If you want to argue that the "rules" need to be followed by the letter, it is a demonstrable fact that P99 uses a form of common law. Rogean, Amelinda, Uthgaard, and now Ephi have all issued rulings and interpretations on the spot or on the forums that modified or impacted written rules. To claim that written that the "P99 Code of Laws" stands alone isn't entirely true. GM Formed interpretation and common law also controls and shapes it.

I agree that FTE sniping is stupid, but I disagree that GM's have no interpretive leeway. I do agree that it is good policy to codify everything, as much as possible, before hand, but I disagree that the codified rules are immune to GM interpretation and good-faith situational modification.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:19 PM
Daldolma Daldolma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Yes, FTE shouts are potentially able to be overturned. Sniping was a concern of Sirken (with CT as the example too), and the suggested solution is to make them informative but non-binding.

If you want to argue that the "rules" need to be followed by the letter, it is a demonstrable fact that P99 uses a form of common law. Rogean, Amelinda, Uthgaard, and now Ephi have all issued rulings and interpretations on the spot or on the forums that modified or impacted written rules. To claim that written that the "P99 Code of Laws" stands alone isn't entirely true. GM Formed interpretation and common law also controls and shapes it.

I agree that FTE sniping is stupid, but I disagree that GM's have no interpretive leeway. I do agree that it is good policy to codify everything, as much as possible, before hand, but I disagree that the codified rules are immune to GM interpretation and good-faith situational modification.
Law school?
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