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#1
06-08-2010, 05:37 AM
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If you really want to make the best tank I'd roll either a pal or an SK.
I'm a rogue at level 39 now and all throughout my grouping experiences warriors have consistently been inferior at holding agro compared to those other two. They can get it done, but I typically have to slow my dps at numerous occasions. Whereas with a pal or SK tank I simply wait for the disease cloud/blind and then just go all out. Also of note : I'm decently geared, but I'm not a twink. This is my first character. Also, I've never grouped with a warrior that had dual SSoY. Whips and Shards just don't seem to get the job done sometimes though. | ||
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#2
06-08-2010, 06:09 AM
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proc weapons are the key. and for this they need DEX well above the 100+ mark. just having whips or shards, or even yaks doesnt help at all if the warrior has150 STR and 90 DEX so yes, in classic and the next 4 months to come knights are better tanks especialy if the warriors keep thinking they have to do dps too. knights have the luxury to go STR and actually do damage since they have the aggro tools in their spell books the term "meatshield" has been invented for a reason, they have to take the hits and the aggro to be valuable for groups. | |||
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#3
06-08-2010, 08:12 AM
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__________________
Sima Yi - 56 Dark Elf Enchanter
Kashius - 54 Iksar Necromancer Tseng - 52 Human Druid Methlab - 50 Troll Shadow Knight Kemba - 19 Monk | |||
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#4
06-08-2010, 03:42 PM
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All of these DPS classes, Bards, slowing classes, etc. want to be able to push assist (or whatever their role calls for in a group) and go at it full sail from the moment the mob enters the room till the end, not have to wait to be called to assist, and not have to think about how to help with aggro control, because that would apparently be too much work for them. Basicly they get to be impatient and lazy with hybrid tanks, and don't with warriors, so somehow that makes warriors inferior tanks. And that is just wrong, despite apparent popular opinion here. Aggro control is a GROUP EFFORT. AGGRO CONTROL IS A GROUP EFFORT. Repeat this to yourself a few times, because you will need to repeat it to people in your groups a lot. Read what Phil wrote above.....That he has to "slow his DPS" with warriors to maintain aggro control. And? I really don't see what the problem is. Healing classes have to judiciously decide when to apply heals for best aggro control and mana efficiency, don't they? Well, so do DPS classes. Better get used to it, because you will have to do this later, especially if you plan to raid. EverQuest is a game built around class interdependence, so I really don't see what the problem is with people having to actually think about what they are doing in a group. Somehow the playerbase of P99 has managed to get the impression that pulling aggro, when you are not the tank, is the tank's problem when in reality it is usually a problem of YOURS, not the tank's, if everyone is playing their class even remotely responsibly. Rogues get evade. Monks get FD. All dps classes can wait a round or two for aggro to be established before throwing the kitchen sink. It's really NOT that hard to work together in this game to make things work properly. It might be EASIER and faster to cut corners now, but that has nothing to do with warriors in the grand scheme of things. If the enchanter is pulling aggro everytime you duly taunt a mob before breaking mez, then he needs to be reminded to use root and/or memblur at the end of his mezz cycle. If he doesn't, he is lazy. Same goes for slowing. This is CLASSIC EQ...Nobody even knew what slow was for back in the day and it was rarely even used. If a chanter or shaman is pulling aggro with slow because they are hitting the mob with it the second it hits the room, tell them to wait till further into a fight or not slow at all. If slow must be used, it probably means your healing in the group is lacking. Not the fault of the tank. You will also quickly notice which bards you want to group with and which ones you don't. There ARE good bards here who know how to let you have aggro when you are trying to get it, you just have to wade through the array of twinks to find them. If there is a bard in the group, he probably should be doing the pulling, in which case, if he's doing his job right, he should be pulling singles the majority of the time, obviating the need for mezzing, making the whole pulling aggro off of him after mezzing discussion moot. All healing classes have root, so if they are pulling aggro, tell them to stop being lazy and use it if they have to. Etc. Etc. Etc. You will still get blamed for a lot of this, because people like doing things on ez-mode, but stick to your guns. Having a thick skin goes a long way when playing a warrior, as does finding a solid group of people to play with. As does having a soloable alt or two that you can play when you just need a break or feel like you are about to strangle someone, because you will have those days. Bottom line is, aside from the lack of available proccing weapons at low levels and the fact that beg is broken on this server (which completely borks a tried and true method of ghetto taunting for warriors) there is absolutely nothing wrong with the warrior class. It is entirely part of the design of the game for paladins and SKs to be able to snap aggro from other classes, including warriors and (in the case of SKs especially) being able to give it back, while, in the long haul, warriors are indeed the superior tank. People just like to call hybrids "better" and the like because they want to be lazy now in classic EQ. It helps to realize that it is this particular era of EQ that made the devs give them lots of love in Kunark and beyond in the form of making them necessary for certain mobs and for a lot of the best group situations. There's a REASON the "holy trinity" that came about in Kunark is a "WARRIOR, cleric, and enchanter." I don't see Paladin or SK in that list, do you? This same conversation could probably be had about shaman, also, really. Pre-kunark, they were pretty much backup healers, sow casters, and junk-buffers. After Kunark their slow, and enchanters', became a vital part of a group. Enchanters got the spotlight immediately because CC was still of value in a big way, but it wasn't long before the need for well played shaman were vividly apparent and is probably why, now, you have to deal with pulling slow aggro off of casters here in retro-classic, ironicly. Same goes for warriors. Hybrid tanks do not get disciplines of consequence. Warriors do. When you are 55+ and have good gear, you will out-tank most paladins and sks in terms of mana efficiency for the group and you will do it without the limitation of needing mana. And because the cleric is saving mana by healing you instead of a hybrid, not having an enchanter in the group to cast one spell isn't such a big deal clearing the way for shaman and their superior slow, saving the cleric even more mana, making the enchanter even less needed and, by extension, caster dps less desirable. Rogues and monks benefit from this also...Not having a chanter to clarity the mage to for dps isn't such a big deal when you have unlimited manaless dps....people thought rogues were useless in classic era too, btw, but they got lots of love in the same ways that warriors did after classic.....No one exists in a vaccum in EQ and it all works in cycles. You will convert the same STA to more HPS than hybrids and will convert the same gear to higher AC. And your class specific gear is tuned up in that regard compared to that of hybrids. In the event that this server finds itself in Luclin down the road (although I don't think it will) you will have AA that tunes you up even farther compared to those classes. And if you plan to raid, wait and see what you will be tanking then and what they will be doing. You will be the tank of choice for big mobs hands-down, while they will be tanking the trash and filling other roles. I don't remember hybrid tanks really coming back into their own as the ideal group tanks while warriors remained raid tanks until after PoP was out, at earliest, but I'm probably a little fuzzy on that and I'm not aware that they ever did in raids. I played a SK main during late kunark and velious era and I can remmember discussions at the time just before Luclin came out, or during Luclin of how the uberest of SKs who were at the top of their game could actually handle tanking SOME raid targets under SOME circumstances. And it was a shock to everyone at the time. Why? Because that's warrior territory and it had been for some time. And I can remember spending a lot of time LFG because groups wanted warriors to tank for them, although in fairness, I think a lot of that was due to the group exp penalty that had become apparent at the time. You just have to deal with levelling up through classic with all of these obstacles (laziness and misinformation being chief among them) now, is all. Out of the box, and in this era, you will have an EASIER time with a paladin or SK and less of an ulcer getting levelled up. Lets face it, during this current era, you really don't even need tanks....Robed casters can do pretty much everything better, faster, and more efficiently than a group with tanks and the support needed for them. If you want easy, skip a tank altogether and play a mage. Right now...It changes with Kunark. If you do choose to stick it out, you will find yourself in a very good place come Kunark and beyond, IMO. Good luck to you. | |||
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Last edited by Weekapaug; 06-08-2010 at 05:33 PM..
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#5
06-08-2010, 05:39 PM
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People pointed out that a lot of warriors perhaps don't gear themselves properly and this could be a big part of the problem. However, if warriors have to gimp their damage by stacking dex just to be able to hold agro, then doesn't this still make paladins and sks better tanks by being able to do more damage as well as hold agro? Again this is only what I've found through the grouping stages of THIS game. Maybe warriors are better tanks for raid mobs? I don't know, I'm only level 39. Maybe they're better tanks in Kunark? I'm just talking about what I've experienced so far. Also, thanks Tseng!! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Go Lakers!! | |||
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Last edited by Phil; 06-08-2010 at 05:45 PM..
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#6
06-08-2010, 06:03 PM
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As a half elf warrior with decent starting Dex I really never had much problems tanking once I got my hands on an Obsidian Shard. Even though I went from pretty much level 22-46 while using a shard in main hand and a non-proccing silvery war axe in the off hand, I almost never had trouble holding aggro until I was low 40's. Though, I also made it a point not to attempt fighting mobs much higher level than me. Now that I have SSoYx2 and FBSS, it is even easier. In-fact, in the planes, I will generally pull aggro off of SK's or Pally's going all out, UNLESS they get multiple spells off before I can get into fighting range. Even then, sometimes I will pull it off part way through the fight.
The problems I had with holding aggro existed when the DPS classes started attack before I had been able to do damage. As long as the DPS classes held of a couple seconds, I generally did not have trouble keeping it on my most of the fight. For melee classes they should be able to engage shortly after the warrior does and not have a problem. A spell caster can easily pull off a mob early on in the fight if they wish. Also, while leveling up, I consistently had healers tell me a warrior tanking was much easier on their mana than SK/Pally. The times I see when a SK/Pally will shine is when they are tanking dark red mobs. In this case, the warrior is at a serious disadvantage as they cannot taunt, their melee dps goes down, and the chance of proc resists is higher. Obviously an SK and Pally would do better in this area as they can constantly spam spells. | ||
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#7
06-08-2010, 06:10 PM
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sk/bards/pally
tank better than a war 1-44 + gear even with obsidian shards pre 44 and or ssoy post 37 they still have trouble from what ive seen disease cloud is the best instant aggro in game, pallys with blind hold it well, and bards with snaresong and decent gear can hold it down if no dedicated tank i hear nothing but complaints from warriors 1-49 they sucked in vanilla and dont get decent till kunark when they can really tank | ||
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#8
06-08-2010, 06:38 PM
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Example: Wizards can do the best and most efficient DPS by nuking from the start also, but they will pull aggro off of pretty much any tank. Healers having to heal them, or losing them to death, thus losing their DPS entirely and requiring even more mana for a rez is even more of a time and mana sink for the group than losing a fraction of their DPS if they had just exercized restraint from the beginning. Which is why they don't drop big nukes from the beginning. In a game that essentially boils down to mana, HPs and aggro, the same thing applies to any DPS class. It comes down to this: A) It goes without saying that aggro needs to be on the tank and stay on the tank. In the grand scheme of things, you having to wait a few rounds to start DPSing is less of a loss to the group overall than the consequences of pulling aggro off of the tank, getting yourself or others killed, needing a heal for yourself or others due to bouncing aggro, etc. B) Post-classic (and probably now although it's not noticeable), clerics healing warriors are more efficient than clerics healing hybrid tanks, for the reasons I explained in my earlier post, but I will try again here. --CH costs a constant amount of mana and takes a constant amount of time to cast, yet can heal up to (If memory serves) 7500 hps....Which means that in the scope of this server it will always truly be a complete heal...As far as I recall, Warriors didn't start topping that until Luclin or PoP at earliest. A warrior with the same build and same gear as a hybrid will have more HPs than that hybrid making the healing the warrior a more efficient target for the cleric to heal. --Warriors convert AC on gear to worn AC more effectively than hybrids, so the same warrior in the same gear as a hybrid of the same build will have more AC than that hybrid, mitigating more damage, which is more efficient for the cleric also because for the same mob, CH has to be cast less often. And to top it off, warrior class specific gear has higher AC on it as well and, I think, more +HPs depending on era, widening that gap even further. --If AA became a factor (which I dont think it will be here, but no one really knows for sure) all of the above would be moreso. C) As for raiding post classic, while a separate topic altogether, Warriors are the ONLY main tanks for raids, with a few very rare notable exceptions. This is because of the disciplines they get, most notablly Defensive. It's worth mentioning in a group discussion, though, because those same disciplines that make them vital for tanking raid mobs, also makes them the tank of choice for tanking tough nameds in a group. Where your hybrid tank may be fine on the grind leading up to the named pop, once that named pops the warrior will be better able to deal with it and will be less of a drain on the cleric. A + B + C = Warriors are the tank of choice in Kunark and, by extension, so are the measures required for dealing with how they generate aggro, which largely involves other classes having to work as hard not to pull aggro as they do pulling it. It's really that simple. Again, aggro control is a GROUP effort. It's not about your DPS. It's about the whole group or getting things done efficiently. No one class or role has any reasonable expectation to throw the kitchen sink always every kill and expect other classes to pick up their slack. And it's not as if Warriors can't take and hold aggro at all, as some like to suggest....It just takes a bit more work on their part and takes a modicum of effort on the part of the group. That's all. This current era we are in is 1/3 of the scope of this server, era-wise, and content-wise is probably 1/5th or 1/10th of it or less....Kunark and Velious have lots packed into them and they are a LOT harder than classic by a long shot. Just because SKs and Pallys can do it now in Classic without downsides doesn't mean that's where the game will be in 6 months. Might as well get used to it now and learn how to accomodate Warriors rather than telling people not to play them, because they are required later as are the tactics needed to work with them. But look at the bright side....The same tuning post-classic that brought warriors to the forefront also brought rogues from relative obscurity to the top of the DPS pyramid. You, also, made a wise choice in classes for the long haul, even though right now robed casters, particularly mages, can out-dps you more effectively with one eye closed. I played a rogue main for years after PoP and would most definately be playing one now if I wasn't trying to get my GF up to speed on the game with more effective duos for that purpose. You are playing the most fun melee class in the game, IMO, and have a lot to look forward to for the same reasons warriors do. | |||
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Last edited by Weekapaug; 06-08-2010 at 07:00 PM..
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#9
06-09-2010, 03:55 AM
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Still, if someone wants to play a warrior. Play a warrior. Ill let you tank in my groups! Im gonna twink out a warrior to level maybe myself. I do want a tank (I love tanking). Paladin would fit my play style better now, but I like to tank bosses. Warriors pre-pop were pretty much the only ones able to except uber uber equipped pallys/sks I recall. I can't remember the first SK/Pally to tank AoW, I think it was after Velious, right? Its been a while. My guild never had a SK or Pally MT. I also tanked over better geared sk/pallys on my warrior in velious /shrug, so maybe it was just "Warriors must tank" mentality? It was kind of just to let me tank =P I was mostly plate cycle/giant farming tank. I didn't get to tank the big baddies often (matter of gear and my main was an enchanter). | |||
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Hybrid Mode
