Raid Changes

[Loke]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement,

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

[Alarti0001]

Best idea... simulated repops, maybe monthly
Put in velious, remove variance.

Done

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

weekly or bi weekly repops would be great but no 24 hour announcement, that gives too much prep time. I think they should do it totally random and just throw up the ol server coming down in 15 minutes spam. Also I still vote for the removal of variance, its not gonna happen but I still think it would be the best way to go.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Sweetbaby Jesus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

weekly or bi weekly repops would be great but no 24 hour announcement, that gives too much prep time. I think they should do it totally random and just throw up the ol server coming down in 15 minutes spam. Also I still vote for the removal of variance, its not gonna happen but I still think it would be the best way to go.

It's hard to disagree with you since the vibe of this thread seems to be pretty defeatist regarding elimination of variance, but I don't understand why.

This is a classic server. No variance is classic. Variance has broken the raid scene.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying matters, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the solution is to revert to classic and eliminate non-classic variance. The poop-socking wars between IB and DA are ancient history, and regardless, that problem could and should have been solved with much less drastic measures. The implementation of variance was firing napalm to get rid of termites.

People are poop-socking raid mobs with no variance? There's a solution to that. FTE means you can sit there all damn day waiting if you want, it's not going to help your odds. There goes socking.

People are trying to rules lawyer regarding FTE? There's a solution to that, too. Here's FTE-shout. Ninja loot or steal a mob without an FTE-shout in your favor and you're suspended.

People are snagging FTE-shout without a legitimate raid force? Yessir! We've got a solution for that, too: tough luck. Let them die and FD/camp to clear aggro if necessary, then get next FTE-shout and go to town. If you keep snagging each others' FTE-shouts without legitimate raid forces to take down the mob, cool. Waste each others' time, that's not of GM concern. See above for rules regarding stealing someone else's FTE-shout. Maybe eventually you'll settle on a rotation so you don't have to play footsy with FTE-shouts all night.

Can anyone explain why that wouldn't work? GMs wouldn't need to spend more than 10 seconds on any raid dispute. Who got FTE-shout on the kill, and who looted? If they don't match, the looter is suspended. Easy and transparent, no room for rules lawyering.

And most importantly, totally classic -- with the simple addition of FTE-shout for GM convenience.

[Autotune]

96 hour windows = dumb
18 hour windows = smart

Make it happen.

96 hour windows don't serve anymore purpose than 18 hour windows, when it comes to variance justification.

does the exact same thing without the absurd time sink that blocks/deters the smaller guilds from wanting to even play the "classic" endgame of p99.

Once the 18 hour windows are in place and bi-weekly server restarts/repops, the server will naturally take care of itself. I know that the GMs wouldn't get any more involved than they already do (which is apparently not very much atm anyhow).

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

Agreed. Sticking all the raid disputes possible into a tiny window would actually create less raid related drama for GMs, instead of possibly spreading it out to all hours of the day/week.

Its also more classic.

Finally, I'd rather have the raid scene fixed than Velious. Velious just changes the location of the drama, simultaneous respawns and/or shorter variance actually alters the mechanics of the drama. Root cause fixes are better than bandaids.

[Purdee]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

96 hour windows = dumb
18 hour windows = smart

Make it happen.

96 hour windows don't serve anymore purpose than 18 hour windows, when it comes to variance justification.

does the exact same thing without the absurd time sink that blocks/deters the smaller guilds from wanting to even play the "classic" endgame of p99.

Once the 18 hour windows are in place and bi-weekly server restarts/repops, the server will naturally take care of itself. I know that the GMs wouldn't get any more involved than they already do (which is apparently not very much atm anyhow).

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

I like this very much.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

Truths.

Also, TMO will never agree to a rotation as long as the core is still around that fought to be in the position they are in now. It would be like asking an army that just took over a castle while you were laid up in a whore house if you can now be king every weekend... not gonna happen.