Where did WoW go right?

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by tops419 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with the poster above. WoW was MUCH more complex (as far as raiding goes) than EQ.
I think the reason so many people play P1999, is you get a chance to be something you could have never been in the same era. The top 5 or 10% in EQ used to have everything: the COF's, Epics, God lewt, etc.
Now 90% have it and it's actually kinda wierd to see a character sporting level appropriate gear( a caster with a flowing black robe, a melee with banded, etc)

Disagree with this. When WoW released it was pretty cut and dry just like EQ was. It wasn't like WoW released with all kinds of awesome raid content. I remember getting to max level and not having much to do when it released.

As I stated before...a lot of this WoW talk is due to the progression of MMO based games, not so much WoW in itself. EQ started getting some pretty tricky and sick raids along the way also. Doesn't mean it was necessarily better at any certain point in time.

I remember playing Anarchy Online which I do believe released before WoW. Had a ton of cool features. Links, item mods, etc. It was basically a flop of a game. Lot of those features later found their way into EQ and WoW.

Just because you seen it first in WoW doesn't mean it was the first to pioneer something.

[Houdiny]

Well if you will read the context in which things were written it might help. He said WoW raiding was much more complex than EQ. Simply not true. I can think of a ton of intense raids that I personally did in EQ. Not just tank and spank. Sure as a healer your job is going to be boring. You have the same job in every raid in every game...keep the tank alive lol of course your going to be bored. It's part of it. Buck up soldier.

Raids in EQ such as Rathe Council, Xegony, all kinds of GoD encounters, Vishimtar, Queen Sendaii, Hatchet, Mayong Mistmoore, 2 or 3 others in DoDH, Porthio, Any number of fights in Solteris, I can go on and on and on about encounters that have MANY things going on.

My entire point is he was comparing WoW and all its glory to 2 expansions of Everquest. 2 Expansions that are essentially the beginning of MMO's when encounters weren't complex in any game. That's what I'm trying to get across. By the time WoW had all those nifty raids EQ had them too.

GoD I considered mild raiding and it was considered the guild breaker of expansions. Many guilds folded and quit trying to get through GoD. What he is comparing is apples to oranges not apples to apples

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by square [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

I also never said I was bored, part of the reason I play on P1999 is the ability to multi-task while playing (sometimes). Other games you actually need to be active 99% of the time. There's no debate about complexity, you're letting your nostalgia goggles blind you, or you simply lied about ever playing WoW. See the part I bolded? You mentioned how encounters weren't complex. WoW (and some other games honestly) made more complex encounters, that would be an improvement, aka Where WoW went right! GEE WIZ!

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

You're also still trying to make the point that "OMG EQ HAD THIS STUFF THE SAME TIME WOW DID!" No one here is saying WoW was the first MMO to come up with everything, yet you seem to look for anything possible to defend EQ and bash WoW for no good reason.

We're on a classic EQ forum for god's sake. We're all here for a reason, you don't need to put up a shield and defend your beloved game. You're allowed to enjoy more than one game, you're allowed to hate some, but this topic was never about bashing WoW, but people like you always feel the need to hate on what is/was popular. I bet you still use your zach morris cell phone too since APPLE AND IPHONES SUCK RARAHRAHRAHH. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

QFT <3

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by square [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

I am not a WoW hater. I played the game for awhile, didn't appeal to me. It's not that I didn't like it I just don't care for easy mode and welfare epics that's all.

You're still not getting it. You want to compare EQ's first two expansions to WoW's first two expansions but again it is apples and oranges all over again. Considering WoW's release alone was later, and WoW's first two expansions were simply later than EQ's first two. I am not absolutely sure when WoW released and what stages EQ was on when it did. It's been too many years. But given the fact that WoW was released quite some time AFTER EQ, it is a given that the first two expansions in WoW are going to be more detailed, simply because of technology and the push in the MMO industry at that time. That's all I'm saying.

As for going into details on EQ raids I will start with Rathe Council, 12 mobs, all having to die within a certain short time frame. 6 mezzable and 6 had to be OT'd, for hours while pulling and setting up was being done.

Vishimtar fight. Zonewide single target periodic death touch that you had to interact with an NPC to have cleared, adds spawning every certain percentage that had to be OT'd (5 or 6 all together I think) egg sacks that had to be killed immediately or else it would wipe raid, adds that hit like a freight train everyone time one person would miss a click or DT or simply died. Zonewide periodic AE dmg. All the while positioning a very large dragon so your raid does not get frontal. And a tail swipe.

Uqua in GoD fight- Nasty DoT on zone in reducing all your stats by 250, having to wield weapon drops in this zone to avoid AE, uncureable reoccuring every minute and a half, a wrong click inside the gas chamber basically wipes your entire raid with a barrage of AE's. every 20 seconds an emote where you have to open a certain door with one of four keys that are on the table. Killing 4 constructs to spawn two named that you have to split raid force on and kill within 30 minutes of initial pop. Among other encounters taking many hours to get through all to receive a flag...

Queen Sendaii- 4 waves, wave 1 and 2 are just adds, not many. Wave 3 spawns 6 adds that split into 12 more adds that split into 3 more each, somewhere around 36 adds or better, all having to be killed in a specific order to avoid being overwhelmed. All the while Queen is moving around her hive AE'ing an 11,000 damage spell which is basically instant death at this point. Then once you have all the adds down you engage the Queen and every 25% she splits into 4 copies, have to find and take down the "right one" to 50% for the other adds to despawn, and finally at 25% 35-40 adds spawn at once and you AE mez, and pray you kill her in time. And all waves are timed and you have to hurry.

These are just a few examples along the way. Almost every encounter in Tacvi, Seat of the Slayer was an obstacle course.This is not even getting into detail of any raids past DoDh expansion. The Queen Sendaii fight was just a flag fight to get into the main raid zone in DoDh. There was worse inside the demiplane. And this is not even in great detail about the fights. There was more involved then what I explained. I just don't see the sense in rambling on about it.

You guys criticize me for not playing through WoW long enough to get the beef of it, and I can understand that. But obviously not everyone here played EQ through it's entirety either. Both games had a lot to offer.

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Houdiny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys criticize me for not playing through WoW long enough to get the beef of it, and I can understand that. But obviously not everyone here played EQ through it's entirety either. Both games had a lot to offer.

I think the game mechanics of any raid boss in BWL, AQ and nax has a way harder learning curve then any EQ raid boss. Just because a bunch of adds spawn and need to be OT or mez doesn't make it hard when you have been doing this since classic. Blizzard put mini games into raiding and it wasn't always just about combat to win. They made raiding fun for a lot of people that's what EQ was lacking by far.

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by lawll [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the game mechanics of any raid boss in BWL, AQ and nax has a way harder learning curve then any EQ raid boss. Just because a bunch of adds spawn and need to be OT or mez doesn't make it hard when you have been doing this since classic. Blizzard put mini games into raiding and it wasn't always just about combat to win. They made raiding fun for a lot of people that's what EQ was lacking by far.

You are very correct. Agree 100% about the difficulty in encounters getting more evolved. I only listed encounters up to a certain point in time. There are encounters even later in EQ that are much more similar to what you are referring too. Sisters event in Demiplane comes to mind. And there is another text based encounter in Demi plane but can't think of the name of it. It's like playing a game with the NPCS. But don't you think that is due to having more technology and more ideas flooding the MMO market? From being 5-8 years newer? Have you tried raiding in recent EQ? I personally haven't. I quit raiding about 2 years ago. So I can't say EQ doesn't have some of those same strategies and qualities. They probably do. Vanguard had similar strategies to what you speak of. The Karax fight is like playing the Simon says game moving all around in just the right areas. So I'm sure SoE has implemented into EQ. The only problem is EQ doesn't have 12 million subs playing it today. It's washed up, old news, ran it's course.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by square [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I shouldn't have to decipher the "context" (lol) on an online forum, be clear instead, because you simply look like a hater. Healing in WoW is by far more complex than EQ ever was, same with melee, same with casters. I'd rather smash buttons for a rotation any day than hit auto attack and watch a fight for an hour. I asked you to "go on and on" about those raids, you didn't. So please do. The most I remember from them was occasional AOE and fears which weren't even very common to begin with.

I also never said I was bored, part of the reason I play on P1999 is the ability to multi-task while playing (sometimes). Other games you actually need to be active 99% of the time. There's no debate about complexity, you're letting your nostalgia goggles blind you, or you simply lied about ever playing WoW. See the part I bolded? You mentioned how encounters weren't complex. WoW (and some other games honestly) made more complex encounters, that would be an improvement, aka Where WoW went right! GEE WIZ!

Lets compare 2 expansions of WoW to 2 expansions of EQ then...would that be fair? Its not about comparison in that sense really. If you'd take a moment to stop foaming at the mouth with hate, you'd see the thread title. We were talking about improvements made from all MMOs not just EQ either. If you think live EQ has nearly the complexity of raids compared to even just the burning crusade expansion of WoW, you simply didn't play.

You're also still trying to make the point that "OMG EQ HAD THIS STUFF THE SAME TIME WOW DID!" No one here is saying WoW was the first MMO to come up with everything, yet you seem to look for anything possible to defend EQ and bash WoW for no good reason.

We're on a classic EQ forum for god's sake. We're all here for a reason, you don't need to put up a shield and defend your beloved game. You're allowed to enjoy more than one game, you're allowed to hate some, but this topic was never about bashing WoW, but people like you always feel the need to hate on what is/was popular. I bet you still use your zach morris cell phone too since APPLE AND IPHONES SUCK RARAHRAHRAHH. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This, pretty much. Stop being merciless fanboys for EQ and admit that WoW simply superceded it in nearly every single area and improved upon everything EQ had.

All of us play on p99 as a niche interest - not because millions of people share that interest. Yes, EQ was the original big-time 3d mmo. But that doesn't mean its successor didn't dominate it in almost every single way.

[Houdiny]

Just to break it down for you and reiterate my point even further. EQ's second expansion was Scars of Velious, release date: Dec 5th 2000. WoW's second expansion was Wrath of the Lich King, release date: Nov 13, 2008.

8 years of difference between the two's first two expansion release date and you guys are comparing raid content? Come on now. It's not comparable. Not even close.

Hell WoW didn't even release it's original game until 2004. 4 years after EQ launched it's second expansion. By the time WoW released EQ was already on Omens of War expansion. According the MMO timelines and google searches.

So of course WoW's 2nd expansion is going to be lightyears ahead of EQ's second expansion.

To put it in perspective by the time WoW released the Wrath of the Lich king, EQ was already on Seeds of Destruction expansion, probably it's 25th or better. If you played in that expansion and are able to compare the two then please do. Otherwise it's apples and oranges fellas.

And I am not here to say EQ was better than WoW. What I am saying is people who call WoW's raiding experience more challenging or better, obviously didn't play EQ through it's entirety and therefor doesn't really have a clue about it.