Suggestions For Wizards

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So basically you are saying that a great wizard plays like a gimped enchanter.

Don't get me wrong, Wizards are a great raid class, arguably the single best raid class in Kunark and still very good in Velious, but for XP groups a bit of simple math can convince you that they suck.

If my group was War/Monk/Shm/Enc/Clr and I had a choice between a Paladin and a Wizard, I'd take the Paladin . . . who can do all the same CC a wizard can, while also tanking and letting the Warrior berserk for twice the wizard's dps.

Of course all this min/max is nothing compared to picking players that are fun to chat with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A good Wizard is always on the brink of aggro. Doing more damage than this good Wizard will immediately put you on top of the aggro list. Especially one you say does twice the Wizards DPS. Unless it is a rogue with evade or some class that has aggro reduction. If that warrior is doing twice the DPS that the Wizard is there is no point in having the Paladin because he wont be seeing aggro at all. Not to mention you are taking a risk of letting someone with low health tank the mob and probably dying because his agility has been reduced to garbage. Absolutely terrible scenario.

If this was the case just run around with 5 warriors and a cleric and keep them all in berserk mode. The rest of the classes in EQ can sit on the sidelines and watch them get reamed.

And no a Wizard is not a gimped Enchanter. A wizards DD's are far superior in every way. More damage, and no refresh. Enchanters have nice dmg'ing spells no doubt. But they are incomparable to that of a Wizard. Dimentia I think is an Enchanters best damaging spell hitting for 675 max, with an 8 second refresh timer and a 6 second casting time. Sunstrike is the Wizards highest damaging spell that has a 7 second cast time and only 2.25 second refresh timer and hits for 1615 damage. It's not even close.

[Splorf22]

I put that first sentence because the OP was talking about this 'great wizard' who did a lot of stuns and roots, i.e. played like a enchanter, except without mez or buffs. And did less damage too. A 60 wizard with clarity gets 30 mana/tick regen and spells that do about 4 damage/mana. That equates to almost exactly 20 damage per second. An enchanter charmed pet does 100 damage per second. Granted those seconds aren't the same (all seconds/combat seconds) but still, if you are fighting 1/5 of the time your group sucks.

Of course all this changes on a raid scenario.

Also no warrior is going to steal aggro from a paladin unless the paladin is asleep at the wheel.

[Splorf22]

I would like to add that we get these posts every so often about 'oh, all you other wizards suck, *I* know the true way to play the class' when its simple mathematics that wizards are the absolute worst class for any xp group, well behind druids and rangers even.

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would like to add that we get these posts every so often about 'oh, all you other wizards suck, *I* know the true way to play the class' when its simple mathematics that wizards are the absolute worst class for any xp group, well behind druids and rangers even.

Sure if you put math too it you can make it sound worse than it is. But you're not taking into account pulling time, afk's, clerics needing mana, tank gaining control/aggro, stopping to rebuff etc...

Say I do 20% dmg of a mobs life in one nuke, if I land two of those nukes I'm essentially doing 40% of that mobs life. That's almost half as much as the rest of the group. As long as lulls in the group allow me to do that I can stay on top of DPS without much problem. Your simple mathematics tells me that if I'm doing 40% of a mobs life and the other 5 group members combined are doing 60% who do you think is going to be doing the most damage out of said group?

I do realize things change from zone to zone, with mobs and hp's and percentages. But your simple mana/damage ratio doesn't necessarily hold up.

I have quarreled many times of the ins and outs of the Wizard/Sorc class in many games spanning 15 years of experience. I'm not always right, but in the end I have always been known for and appreciated for the DPS I bring to the table. And if all the others sending me tells for groups can see it then that's all that matters to me.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Houdiny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure if you put math too it you can make it sound worse than it is. But you're not taking into account pulling time, afk's, clerics needing mana, tank gaining control/aggro, stopping to rebuff etc...

Say I do 20% dmg of a mobs life in one nuke, if I land two of those nukes I'm essentially doing 40% of that mobs life. That's almost half as much as the rest of the group. As long as lulls in the group allow me to do that I can stay on top of DPS without much problem. Your simple mathematics tells me that if I'm doing 40% of a mobs life and the other 5 group members combined are doing 60% who do you think is going to be doing the most damage out of said group?

I do realize things change from zone to zone, with mobs and hp's and percentages. But your simple mana/damage ratio doesn't necessarily hold up.

I have quarreled many times of the ins and outs of the Wizard/Sorc class in many games spanning 15 years of experience. I'm not always right, but in the end I have always been known for and appreciated for the DPS I bring to the table. And if all the others sending me tells for groups can see it then that's all that matters to me.

How about a gentleman's bet for 5k then? We can form an XP group for Sebilis or HS (anywhere with plenty of mobs) with my 60 enchanter and your wizard for an hour or two. If my charmed pet outdamages your wizard nukes, I win (obviously I still have to CC and buff). Anything less, you win.

If you prefer, we can insist that the group includes a 55+ shaman and a 58+ tank, in which case I'd be willing to accept 2:1 odds (pet outdamages you by a factor of two).

[Houdiny]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How about a gentleman's bet for 5k then? We can form an XP group for Sebilis or HS (anywhere with plenty of mobs) with my 60 enchanter and your wizard for an hour or two. If my charmed pet outdamages your wizard nukes, I win (obviously I still have to CC and buff). Anything less, you win.

If you prefer, we can insist that the group includes a 55+ shaman and a 58+ tank, in which case I'd be willing to accept 2:1 odds (pet outdamages you by a factor of two).

Well firstly I'm not even 60 yet, and not even close too it. This is experience from EQ live talking. And my current experience in Project99 which is virtually identical to this point.

The comparison made earlier in this thread was that Wizards were gimped Enchanters. I know how well Enchanters charmed pets can be. We took down RZ in Tactics, and sailed through tipt trials time and again with Enchanter pets. And yes I'm sure your pet plus your DPS would be more than mine. But no way in hell will you out DPS me without that pet with us being equal level and somewhat similar gear.

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Houdiny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

You've just proven that wizards are terrible DPS. You need the stars to align in order for you to even claim that your DPS would be insane, when a rogue or monk or necro or mage or ench can sustain great, xp-group DPS with ease.

And also, your sustained DPS would still not even APPROACH being "insane" even if you never missed med ticks, had 2 necros twitching you nonstop, had c2, and had a bard twisting mana songs nonstop. You'd be looking at maybe 50-60 sustained DPS. And looking at that number in a vaccuum, that is great sustained DPS. But it isn't insane, and it required 3 players dedicated to boosting you plus buffs plus an unrealistically godly tank for you to achieve it.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Houdiny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well firstly I'm not even 60 yet, and not even close too it. This is experience from EQ live talking. And my current experience in Project99 which is virtually identical to this point.

The comparison made earlier in this thread was that Wizards were gimped Enchanters. I know how well Enchanters charmed pets can be. We took down RZ in Tactics, and sailed through tipt trials time and again with Enchanter pets. And yes I'm sure your pet plus your DPS would be more than mine. But no way in hell will you out DPS me without that pet with us being equal level and somewhat similar gear.

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

I don't think you even reading my posts. Anyway, glad you are enjoying your time on P1999!