Rules clarification

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus

Instead of 15 manning, the new standard is jugg killing with a raid. It seems obvious to me that both "standards" lead to different forms of escalation. It just so happens that 15 manning the spawn is the established method, and more easily adjudicated. That said, 15 maning only happens very very late in a window, or in response to another guild's being present in force.

Normally this wouldn't be any of my business, but what if another guild wanted to compete over Trak? Why is it fair that your punishment for BDA's behaviour indirectly punishes other guilds? The way I see it as a third party, what BDA did didn't preclude us from competing, but claiming first-to-15 did. I'm not saying we were planning to contest Trak that night, but it discourages us and other casual guilds from doing so in the future when this kind of behaviour is the norm.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Normally this wouldn't be any of my business, but what if another guild wanted to compete over Trak? Why is it fair that your punishment for BDA's behaviour indirectly punishes other guilds? The way I see it as a third party, what BDA did didn't preclude us from competing, but claiming first-to-15 did. I'm not saying we were planning to contest Trak that night, but it discourages us and other casual guilds from doing so in the future when this kind of behaviour is the norm.

What did BDA do that deserved to be punished? Is killing juggs/reets and hoping to get lucky on a trak spawn bad behavior now? We don't ask everyone to camp out their main and be sitting at the login screen ready to be on within 1 minute, so when we have alot of people on we kill juggs and reets get spells and a few items and hope trak spawns. We have employed the same strategy on numerous occasions in the past and only once did we get a trak spawn while doing it.

Divinity tried the same strat Monday night but had no luck on trak spawn.

Tmo used to the rules to claim the spawn, I am not that upset about that. It sure beats Darthdeath training us. I would take a lawyer over a criminal everytime. It was even suggested during our jugg run that we should sit on the spawn but we deemed the costs outweighed the benefits b/c it makes the encounter much harder and this rule had not been used in quite some time which we thought would lead to a sort of arm's race scenario. Its been used again so I expect it will be used often now anytime a mob goes late in window.

I will say that I agree with the OP that if you are going to use the rule to have the gms award you the "camp" then you should be required to maintain your camp. Moving the 15 away the second the other guild moves along is pretty lame and for anything else would be considering leaving your camp. The discouragement for using this rule is that it requires a great deal of dedication and effort to get the mob as well as a more difficult encounter.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What did BDA do that deserved to be punished? Is killing juggs/reets and hoping to get lucky on a trak spawn bad behavior now? We don't ask everyone to camp out their main and be sitting at the login screen ready to be on within 1 minute, so when we have alot of people on we kill juggs and reets get spells and a few items and hope trak spawns. We have employed the same strategy on numerous occasions in the past and only once did we get a trak spawn while doing it.

Divinity tried the same strat Monday night but had no luck on trak spawn.

Tmo used to the rules to claim the spawn, I am not that upset about that. It sure beats Darthdeath training us. I would take a lawyer over a criminal everytime. It was even suggested during our jugg run that we should sit on the spawn but we deemed the costs outweighed the benefits b/c it makes the encounter much harder and this rule had not been used in quite some time which we thought would lead to a sort of arm's race scenario. Its been used again so I expect it will be used often now anytime a mob goes late in window.

I will say that I agree with the OP that if you are going to use the rule to have the gms award you the "camp" then you should be required to maintain your camp. Moving the 15 away the second the other guild moves along is pretty lame and for anything else would be considering leaving your camp. The discouragement for using this rule is that it requires a great deal of dedication and effort to get the mob as well as a more difficult encounter.

I didn't say your behaviour should be punished or that it was bad in any way, and I have no opinion on whether it is. My point was that if TMO was going to use first-to-15 as punishment against BDA, it's unfair that other guilds get punished as well.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What did BDA do that deserved to be punished? Is killing juggs/reets and hoping to get lucky on a trak spawn bad behavior now? We don't ask everyone to camp out their main and be sitting at the login screen ready to be on within 1 minute, so when we have alot of people on we kill juggs and reets get spells and a few items and hope trak spawns. We have employed the same strategy on numerous occasions in the past and only once did we get a trak spawn while doing it.

Divinity tried the same strat Monday night but had no luck on trak spawn.

Tmo used to the rules to claim the spawn, I am not that upset about that. It sure beats Darthdeath training us. I would take a lawyer over a criminal everytime. It was even suggested during our jugg run that we should sit on the spawn but we deemed the costs outweighed the benefits b/c it makes the encounter much harder and this rule had not been used in quite some time which we thought would lead to a sort of arm's race scenario. Its been used again so I expect it will be used often now anytime a mob goes late in window.

I will say that I agree with the OP that if you are going to use the rule to have the gms award you the "camp" then you should be required to maintain your camp. Moving the 15 away the second the other guild moves along is pretty lame and for anything else would be considering leaving your camp. The discouragement for using this rule is that it requires a great deal of dedication and effort to get the mob as well as a more difficult encounter.

If a guild invokes it, there has to be a guild to challenge it. If you see a guild claiming 15 with 15 and you want them to stay with 15, you should be required to keep people there as well.

One guild calls 15 with 15, fine, make them engage with 15 if it spawns. However, the other guild that wants them to engage with 15 should be required to enforce the challenge, not walk away and do whatever. It should discourage both sides from poopsocking and leading to the 15 on spawn.

FYI, Poopsocking generally leads to 15 on spawn or FTE GM calls. One route doesn't involve GMs the other does. TMO chose the correct route. The only other option TMO had was to give them Trakanon which is what BDA wanted. So cry more at not getting what you want, I see what your guild is truly upset about, not getting what they want (pixels).

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say that I agree with the OP that if you are going to use the rule to have the gms award you the "camp" then you should be required to maintain your camp. Moving the 15 away the second the other guild moves along is pretty lame and for anything else would be considering leaving your camp. The discouragement for using this rule is that it requires a great deal of dedication and effort to get the mob as well as a more difficult encounter.

First, we had upwards of 60 people ON spawn, including Enraptured.

Second, when we moved away from the spawn point after BDA abandoned the raid, BDA had the option to return. They did not.

Third, BDA could have just as easily used the 15-man rule to their advantage when they saw all of us logging in on the ledge. They did not.

[Dravingar]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First, we had upwards of 60 people ON spawn, including Enraptured.

Second, when we moved away from the spawn point after BDA abandoned the raid, BDA had the option to return. They did not.

Third, BDA could have just as easily used the 15-man rule to their advantage when they saw all of us logging in on the ledge. They did not.

Late to the party but fucking lol 60 man zerg on trakanon. Way to show that superior skill.