How would have YOU made each class?

[Daldaen]

The AAs from luclin were pretty good IMO. Dire Charm was $$$


As far as druids go, they tried to go a more healer-centric model in giving us Tunare's Renewal. I would've liked them to give us moar DPS stuff though instead of going almost all healer.

[webrunner5]

Endless Quiver AA for Rangers were a huge difference for them along with Autofire. Just buy or make one killer arrow and stand on a hill and kill the crap out of mobs. Crits on arrows were deadly.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The AAs from luclin were pretty good IMO. Dire Charm was $$$


As far as druids go, they tried to go a more healer-centric model in giving us Tunare's Renewal. I would've liked them to give us moar DPS stuff though instead of going almost all healer.

But you have to admit having a single healing class in the game makes that class overpowered.

Changes to classic I would make (broad generalizations):

Paladin: Increase their raid value via group healing, possibly bump their DPS.

Shadow Knight: Their raid value is in pulling, but I don't think that's where it should be. I don't think its the knight that needs changing, rather the game mechanics SKs utilize for their accomplishments.

Warrior: Provide aggro capabilities similar to a knight. They should not be reliant on proc weapons, but their tankability (/disc defensive) and DPS are fine.

Cleric: Complete Heal is one of the most overpowered abilities ever granted in a game, there is a reason no other game ever implemented the spell. Remove CH and the game doesn't have to be balanced around "the chain".

Druid: Should be a viable healer, or a viable DPS, not half-assed at both simultaneously. Chloro is great for groups, but horrible for the tank. They should be better healers than Paladins @ 60.

Shaman: 50-70% slow is overpowered for one class. Torpor is overpowered. They shouldn't be able to solo WW dragons unlike other classes due to their slows, heals, armor and spell line-up.

Monk: Monk CC should not trump bard/chanter CC. Feign Death is similar to CH: completely overpowered and game-changing. They also shouldn't tank as well as warriors (if not better without defensive).

Ranger: EQ+AM3 was the single greatest thing ever for rangers and made them completely viable DPS.

Rogue: Rogues in all games suffer from a problem of selfishness. They are amazing, but they need all the support and provide none/very little in return. Its up to you if that is a "flaw" or a "feature" of the class.

Bard: Bards are an amazing class that no other game has managed to duplicate. Their mana regen songs should affect the bard, he should have more songs that require mana, and (if monks keep FD) he should get fading memories. If they need a nerf on anything, they should have a maximum number of targets their PBAOE DoTs should affect. They also need to scale better.

Enchanter: Amazing class requiring skill to play well. Their problem is not with themselves, but their role in the larger game. They take incredible amounts of skill to play and level, then are relegated to buff-bot status for raids at end-game. Fix the game and you'll fix enchanters. If anything, charm is overpowered in the grouping game, but I feel has nice risk/reward for solo.

Magician: Pets do too much DPS until raid PBAOEs destroy them too fast for them to do anything. The caster can't land anything and his nukes are inferior to his counterpart the Wizard. Buff magician efficiency equal to wizards, but control damage/cast time such that their casted DPS + pet is on-par with wizards.

Necromancer: DoTs are overpowered. If the initial hit lands, you are guaranteed all damage, and they have to be scaled to DPS on-par with crit streaks from melee which melee might run dry on. Allow individual ticks to crit so the base damage can be tuned down and also allow individual ticks to be resisted much like melee missing a combat round. Their healing is also arguably better than a Druid's, but I think that means buffing the Druid rather than nerfing the necro.

Wizard: Wizard sustained DPS is horrible. Increase their efficiency so their sustained DPS is rogue-like. Never implement mana-burn, it ruined classic raiding more than gear.

[Danth]

Falkun's preferences appear to be considered primarily with raiding in mind. Due to my personal indifference towards raiding, I'd do things a bit differently. In particular I'd be less inclined to remove class-defining, powerful abilities and I'm not in favor of "nerfing" in general.

From a group standpoint, tank improvement would be fairly straightforward. The hybrid tanks should have had the same innate mitigation advantage (often referred to as -1 DI) as the warrior, whilst the warrior needed better hate generation (both snap and sustained). Bash, Slam, warrior Kick at 55+, and Disarm all probably should have generated more hate than they do. Maybe crits, too. Neither such change would alter the relative strengths of the classes, only lessen the gaps in a good way.

Note that I never have, and never will, view Paladin buffs not stacking with Cleric buffs as a problem. Hybrid spell casting times become a problem at high level, but this was fixed during Velious.

Healers are trickier than tanks because there's only one genuine healer class in Everquest--the Cleric. Clerics themselves are in a good position, but having only one real healer never was satisfactory. Druids could easily be improved as healers without displacing a Cleric. Note that even with Complete Heal, a Druid would usually be less efficient than a Cleric healer owing to the Cleric's vastly superior hit point buffs. Such suggestions are therefore commonplace, but I'm dubious of the prospect. While the Druid's group role seems weak, it's by design since it's predominantly a non-group class that excels in most other aspects of the game. I'd prefer to add a second, genuine healer class as opposed to improving Druids in a role most of them probably wouldn't have wanted to be pigeonholed in to. My preference would be for something similar to the Disciple from Vanguard.

Wizard sustained damage output is rather weak even in a group setting. The goal of improving the class's damage per hour without improving it's already best-in-game burst damage mean some form of innate mana regeneration would have been the best approach. I believe this was eventually done, though not during the classic era.

Rangers should have had bow damage that roughly matches their melee, and a means of obtaining and carrying sufficient ammunition. This could be accomplished by several means. I don't see a Ranger as equal to Rogue damage output, but rather a class that should have uniquely possessed the capability to deal competitive damage both from melee and range.

Magicians and Necromancers would both benefit from better pet control than provided by classic Everquest ("pet hold", etc). The pet experience penalty for pets that do most the damage should have been greatly lessened or eliminated except in cases where the pet did >95% damage (so as to discourage AFK leveling).

Outside main healing, both Druids and Shamans should have received Superior Heal at a somewhat lower level. This change was actually made during the Velious era if I recall. Shamans are in a fairly good place otherwise. Druid direct spell damage probably should have been somewhat more efficient.

Monks, Rogues, Bards, and Enchanters are in a generally good spot already in terms of group roles. I'd probably have added more places for things like disarm trap and pick lock.

The above represents what I see as general improvements that could have been made. Specific tweaks are too numerous in number to be worth listing.

Danth

[Lubian]

I'm not sure how many of you play the current Everquest, but I thought it was interesting to see issues/changes listed here that were resolved years ago. I debated whether to list some of the changes, but this thread is a little off topic anyway.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Falkun's preferences appear to be considered primarily with raiding in mind. Due to my personal indifference towards raiding, I'd do things a bit differently. In particular I'd be less inclined to remove class-defining, powerful abilities and I'm not in favor of "nerfing" in general.

From a group standpoint, tank improvement would be fairly straightforward. The hybrid tanks should have had the same innate mitigation advantage (often referred to as -1 DI) as the warrior, whilst the warrior needed better hate generation (both snap and sustained). Bash, Slam, warrior Kick at 55+, and Disarm all probably should have generated more hate than they do. Maybe crits, too. Neither such change would alter the relative strengths of the classes, only lessen the gaps in a good way.

Note that I never have, and never will, view Paladin buffs not stacking with Cleric buffs as a problem. Hybrid spell casting times become a problem at high level, but this was fixed during Velious.

Healers are trickier than tanks because there's only one genuine healer class in Everquest--the Cleric. Clerics themselves are in a good position, but having only one real healer never was satisfactory. Druids could easily be improved as healers without displacing a Cleric. Note that even with Complete Heal, a Druid would usually be less efficient than a Cleric healer owing to the Cleric's vastly superior hit point buffs. Such suggestions are therefore commonplace, but I'm dubious of the prospect. While the Druid's group role seems weak, it's by design since it's predominantly a non-group class that excels in most other aspects of the game. I'd prefer to add a second, genuine healer class as opposed to improving Druids in a role most of them probably wouldn't have wanted to be pigeonholed in to. My preference would be for something similar to the Disciple from Vanguard.

Wizard sustained damage output is rather weak even in a group setting. The goal of improving the class's damage per hour without improving it's already best-in-game burst damage mean some form of innate mana regeneration would have been the best approach. I believe this was eventually done, though not during the classic era.

Rangers should have had bow damage that roughly matches their melee, and a means of obtaining and carrying sufficient ammunition. This could be accomplished by several means. I don't see a Ranger as equal to Rogue damage output, but rather a class that should have uniquely possessed the capability to deal competitive damage both from melee and range.

Magicians and Necromancers would both benefit from better pet control than provided by classic Everquest ("pet hold", etc). The pet experience penalty for pets that do most the damage should have been greatly lessened or eliminated except in cases where the pet did >95% damage (so as to discourage AFK leveling).

Outside main healing, both Druids and Shamans should have received Superior Heal at a somewhat lower level. This change was actually made during the Velious era if I recall. Shamans are in a fairly good place otherwise. Druid direct spell damage probably should have been somewhat more efficient.

Monks, Rogues, Bards, and Enchanters are in a generally good spot already in terms of group roles. I'd probably have added more places for things like disarm trap and pick lock.

The above represents what I see as general improvements that could have been made. Specific tweaks are too numerous in number to be worth listing.

Danth

These are great ideas that show a fundamental understanding of EverQuest. I applaud this post. Well written.

[porigromus]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But you have to admit having a single healing class in the game makes that class overpowered.

Changes to classic I would make (broad generalizations):

Paladin: Increase their raid value via group healing, possibly bump their DPS.

Shadow Knight: Their raid value is in pulling, but I don't think that's where it should be. I don't think its the knight that needs changing, rather the game mechanics SKs utilize for their accomplishments.

Warrior: Provide aggro capabilities similar to a knight. They should not be reliant on proc weapons, but their tankability (/disc defensive) and DPS are fine.

Cleric: Complete Heal is one of the most overpowered abilities ever granted in a game, there is a reason no other game ever implemented the spell. Remove CH and the game doesn't have to be balanced around "the chain".

Druid: Should be a viable healer, or a viable DPS, not half-assed at both simultaneously. Chloro is great for groups, but horrible for the tank. They should be better healers than Paladins @ 60.

Shaman: 50-70% slow is overpowered for one class. Torpor is overpowered. They shouldn't be able to solo WW dragons unlike other classes due to their slows, heals, armor and spell line-up.

Monk: Monk CC should not trump bard/chanter CC. Feign Death is similar to CH: completely overpowered and game-changing. They also shouldn't tank as well as warriors (if not better without defensive).

Ranger: EQ+AM3 was the single greatest thing ever for rangers and made them completely viable DPS.

Rogue: Rogues in all games suffer from a problem of selfishness. They are amazing, but they need all the support and provide none/very little in return. Its up to you if that is a "flaw" or a "feature" of the class.

Bard: Bards are an amazing class that no other game has managed to duplicate. Their mana regen songs should affect the bard, he should have more songs that require mana, and (if monks keep FD) he should get fading memories. If they need a nerf on anything, they should have a maximum number of targets their PBAOE DoTs should affect. They also need to scale better.

Enchanter: Amazing class requiring skill to play well. Their problem is not with themselves, but their role in the larger game. They take incredible amounts of skill to play and level, then are relegated to buff-bot status for raids at end-game. Fix the game and you'll fix enchanters. If anything, charm is overpowered in the grouping game, but I feel has nice risk/reward for solo.

Magician: Pets do too much DPS until raid PBAOEs destroy them too fast for them to do anything. The caster can't land anything and his nukes are inferior to his counterpart the Wizard. Buff magician efficiency equal to wizards, but control damage/cast time such that their casted DPS + pet is on-par with wizards.

Necromancer: DoTs are overpowered. If the initial hit lands, you are guaranteed all damage, and they have to be scaled to DPS on-par with crit streaks from melee which melee might run dry on. Allow individual ticks to crit so the base damage can be tuned down and also allow individual ticks to be resisted much like melee missing a combat round. Their healing is also arguably better than a Druid's, but I think that means buffing the Druid rather than nerfing the necro.

Wizard: Wizard sustained DPS is horrible. Increase their efficiency so their sustained DPS is rogue-like. Never implement mana-burn, it ruined classic raiding more than gear.

Thanks for the excellent post. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]