Where did EQ Live go wrong?

[Daldaen]

Eh too many people here seem to think time consuming = challenging.

Mindlessly killing hours of trash in Vex Thal isn't challenging. Nor is running across 20 zones that are all green cons to you.

Generally speaking I like games that challenge me, not ones that I zone in with a max force and 1 shot every single raid mob. Raid events that make me think outside the box, on tanking, healing, positioning, CC, etc.

And Classic - Velious raiding isn't that at all, its stack on resist gear and corner tank. Luclin introduced more interesting events, where you needed bane weapons or there is a sequence of killing you need to do to unlock the boss and whatnot.

Planes and Gates both expanded on that and made raids actually challenging which I liked. But I may be alone in that :/.

Mudflation, meh, its just gear. While I understand not looking at EVERY piece of the gears stats is upsetting to some, most of it was just a transition. You no longer needed to try to max out your main stat in PoP... but now had Mod2s and foci to worry about, etc. It always transitioned into a new piece of gearing that you needed to focus in on as older ones like stats / resists were obsoleted.

[Deadmantis]

I actually enjoyed Luclin, PoP, LoY and LDoN. I kept playing after GoD came out but did not partake in much of the content, it felt like they were getting too far from the original. OoW pretty much did it for me, never went back after that.

[Galelor]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh too many people here seem to think time consuming = challenging.

Mindlessly killing hours of trash in Vex Thal isn't challenging. Nor is running across 20 zones that are all green cons to you.

Generally speaking I like games that challenge me, not ones that I zone in with a max force and 1 shot every single raid mob. Raid events that make me think outside the box, on tanking, healing, positioning, CC, etc.

And Classic - Velious raiding isn't that at all, its stack on resist gear and corner tank. Luclin introduced more interesting events, where you needed bane weapons or there is a sequence of killing you need to do to unlock the boss and whatnot.

Planes and Gates both expanded on that and made raids actually challenging which I liked. But I may be alone in that :/.

I agree that the raids ingenuity and diversity was WAY better after Velious. I raided through a lot of the EQ content and we all know that keying/trash clearing is no fun, but this introduced much more exciting raid content.

That said, the group game and non-purist game suffered greatly because GoD was over-tuned. That is where I remember seeing the largest exodus from the game.

[Littlestgnome]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh too many people here seem to think time consuming = challenging.

Mindlessly killing hours of trash in Vex Thal isn't challenging. Nor is running across 20 zones that are all green cons to you.

People tend to blame the "newbies" for all of EQ's poor and/or short-sighted decisions but this is one I firmly place on the heads of the hard core and long-time EQ gamer. They were the ones who'd rode the boat and crossed the zones a hundred times before and were demanding easier travel. They especially wanted such things for their re-rolls so they could get to their preferred levelling zones quicker.

People new to the game didn't know any better but were more than willing to go along with the complaints because it allowed them to use the same levelling path the grinders used.

The key to remember is that travel was not simply about "time sink". A level 1 player did not simply think about how long it would take to run from Qeynos to Kelethin. They had to consider the risk of the zones they intended to traverse, how much help they might need to successfully make the journey, and of course the penalty of failure. For those who did make it, completion of the journey usually brought on a great sigh of relief and a certain sense of accomplishment no spire trip (or book click later on) could ever hope to provide.

Luclin inflated the crisis in two ways really. First of course, they added the spires. But second and more important, they gave low entry luclin zones huge exp bonuses. It made it far too enticing for ALL players to gain just enough levels to get into Paludal Caverns where exp flowed like gravy over biscuits. And once there it was generally accepted to go to Netherbain followed frequently by Dawnshrouds.

It was not long before newbies had to follow suit because most of the old world 10-30 zones were now completely barren. If you wanted or needed a group -- and most newbies did at this point -- you were all but resigned to going whereever the masses were. And no matter how whiny people are now about the moon, that's where they were back then. Plus by this point all old world newbie quests were ridiculously outdated compared to what could potentially drop or be quested for in the Luclin zones. Even if you were determined to stay in the old world, you likely did so at the expense of easier gearing and monitary gain.

Removing fast travel certainly wouldn't have cured all these ills. But it did it's part in adding to the issues all the same. The PoK books made it that much more profound. But more to the point, removing the "time sink" of travel removed other key components of early level decision making. Gone was the need to build up before branching out. Gone was the threat of "if I get killed a continent away from my bind point I'm screwed". The fears that were such important aspects of what made Everquest feel like a true adventure were forever compromised and later on removed entirely by the manner in which they implimented fast travel.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Littlestgnome [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

--Snip for length--

Yes the fear of travel was a huge part of the game. So was the leveling decisions of build up before branch out. But, this is the thing that pisses me off.

Build up before you branch out. Check out East Commonlands. The number of alts there begging for buffs off high levels. From all races, Iksars, Erudites, Wood elves etc. Races that don't even start remotely close to EC.

So they get a port, bind and SoW in 10 minutes and that fear is lost and they all just congregate to the fast exping of "buff me with all your druid buffs thanx"

It was pretty rare to see a non-barbarian/erudite/half-elf/human in Blackburrow. So too was it pretty rare to see a non-gnome/dwarf/high-elf/wood elf in Crushbone. But it happens all the time in P99 cause people know that if they just get a SoW/Bind/Port from a friendly druid they can go wherever they want and not fear travel at all. And thats what most resort to. Sending people like myself tells for ports, binds, and sows.

Which is fine, until those exact people crusade against Luclin for it ruining the 'fear of travel' lol. Or against PoP for PoP books etc.

As for the go to where people exp argument, that just came natural with... better gear + more zones. If you add more zones, there is no way the existing zones + new zones will hold a population and sustain it unless more people join the game to fill those new zones.

[Littlestgnome]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Check out East Commonlands. The number of alts there begging for buffs off high levels. From all races, Iksars, Erudites, Wood elves etc. Races that don't even start remotely close to EC.

So they get a port, bind and SoW in 10 minutes and that fear is lost and they all just congregate to the fast exping of "buff me with all your druid buffs thanx"

It was pretty rare to see a non-barbarian/erudite/half-elf/human in Blackburrow. So too was it pretty rare to see a non-gnome/dwarf/high-elf/wood elf in Crushbone. But it happens all the time in P99 cause people know that if they just get a SoW/Bind/Port from a friendly druid they can go wherever they want and not fear travel at all. And thats what most resort to. Sending people like myself tells for ports, binds, and sows.

Which is fine, until those exact people crusade against Luclin for it ruining the 'fear of travel' lol. Or against PoP for PoP books etc.

As for the go to where people exp argument, that just came natural with... better gear + more zones. If you add more zones, there is no way the existing zones + new zones will hold a population and sustain it unless more people join the game to fill those new zones.

There is a huge difference between players of today utilizing other players/friends/coin for their travelling and levelling needs and the ability for any level 1 to traverse the globe without so much as having earned a single copper or speaking with another player. And again, the idea of that level 1 doing so without any fear of death, repercussion or even time constraint makes the game as a whole less potent than it was before. The Nexus started this trend and PoP compounded the matter exponentially.

The exp argument is not a mere matter of spreading the population too thin because now there's more zones. If the newer zones were on equal footing with their predecessors then this would be a more accurate claim. That was not the case however. Luclin made it so that anyone NOT levelling in the new zones did so at a clear dissadvantage whether it was via the potential item drops or the sheer exp gain potential, and it did so almost from the very first level of the game. The exp modifiers alone made Paludal the premiere choice for anyone over level 10. And again thanks to the spires this zone was readily available to virtually all playable races without even the slightest fear or effort. To make it even more enticing a city that could be bound to and was friendly to all was a mere zone away. The only thing left to complain about was the time it took for unassisted players to get there to which Sony responded with the PoK books which took even that consideration out of the picture.