Resist System Feedback

[Darwoth]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have about 120 Cold resist, IC landing full damage about 70% of the time. Elemental resist seem fine.

ice comet has a negative 10 modifier, so your 120 is now 110, null also gave the wizard class itself a negative modifier so even lower.

[Darwoth]

another string of 20 starfires (410 max) on the same 1 lev lower target with the same 124 fr.

197, 102, 226, 263, 102, 300, 102, 275, 102, 102, 102, 267, 213, 102, 102, 102, 102, 197, 102. 102

so, what we have this time is a 60% waste of mana rate. average damage per 250 mana 6 second cast time spell, 145....... less than a decent two hander swing.

again, this is completely broken.

YOU DID NOT GET FULL RESISTS ON SINGLE EFFECT NUKES BEYOND THE DEFAULT PERCENTAGE REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH YOUR RESISTANCES ARE.

30% or MORE of those casts should be landing for full damage.

this is how the game played during the entire launch through velious timeframe, this is the resist system that was everquest and this is what people came here to play.


i have better gear than a lot of folks, with resistance rings and things i have enough mana for 6 nukes, maybe if i had 2 bars of mana against an afk war/pal/sk and no aggro lowbie mobs to interrupt the 6 second cast time that i have to stand still during i could kill them after a full minute+ of standing around with a thumb up my ass chain casting. if i was lucky.

if the numbers had an extra 100 damage across the board it would be a lot closer to how it is supposed to look, or again if the 102's were replaced with a number out of the rest of the string.

this really needs to be fixed or the server will be another 50 population sack of shit like every other emulator i have played where plate class melees roam around invulnerable to everything but other plate class melees because the devs shitted up the resistance system, really dont know why it cant just be made classic.

[Cwall]

Originally Posted by Darwoth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

really dont know why it cant just be made classic.

because all they have to work with is differing anecdotal evidence from 12 years ago

[MakeYouMad]

Originally Posted by Cwall [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

because all they have to work with is differing anecdotal evidence from 12 years ago

That's where you're wrong because I found a parse of a wizard nuking himself with 167CR. It was before September 2002 (when the resist revamp occurred), so the resist system during that time should be the same as classic through velious:

"I'm also on TZ -- i did some experimenting - yah i was bored
nuking myself with draught of ice (i have 167 cold resist unbuffed) the average hit was for 347 , so yah it can land consistent dmg, just not a whole lot. "

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...ead-and-Learn&

If you get PvP damage reduction casting on yourself, that would be 347 out of 531 possible damage, or 65% average. If you don't get PvP damage reduction nuking yourself, that would be 347/793, or an average of 44% per nuke. No data on full resist rates. He uses the phrase "the average hit" so I'm guessing he did not count full resists as 0 damage in that parse and left them out or his average would be much lower.

[Null]

Originally Posted by Darwoth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

YOU DID NOT GET FULL RESISTS ON SINGLE EFFECT NUKES BEYOND THE DEFAULT PERCENTAGE REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH YOUR RESISTANCES ARE.

This is just plain not true, to quote a few people from that thread that MakeYouMad is linking:

Post

Tears sucks against melee's imo, druzzil is a waste of time due to the resists, I think the best use is prexus on an int or wis caster. Pre 60 I found that ice comet had a far too high resist rate to use often, and it is slow as hell. Draughts suck too but at least they are fast... but I noticed as you get past 56/57 they become almost unusable (hitting friends for under 100 per draught with 140s resists).

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130936

SOL can be resisted..I resist it all day ;p

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130931

Well I'm 54 - but I've taken down lvl 60 wizards so lemme give it to ya from a victims point of view.

Solists and Sunstrike - my resists are like 170ish. Sunstrike I usually flat out resist 1 in 4 and the rest dont do jack. Solists seems to work like Ice Comet. One time it hits for 100, next time 700 etc.

Keep in mind the 6 level diff also - I'm sure this changes if it was a lvl 60 vs lvl 60 wiz.

Anwyayz - hope this helps.

Ace
KotWR

All of them talk about resist rates on direct damage spells and the entire thread advocates using lures in place of other direct damage spells because of that reason.

Hell that last quote there is saying that with 170FR and a 7 level gap (he is 54 and the caster is 60) says, "I usually flat out resist 1 in 4 and the rest dont do jack.". How does that sound like anything you are describing?


Also, just for shits if you go with the resist rate that he is describing AND use the numbers derived from another post in that thread (thanks MakeYouMad)

If you get PvP damage reduction casting on yourself, that would be 347 out of 531 possible damage, or 65% average. If you don't get PvP damage reduction nuking yourself, that would be 347/793, or an average of 44% per nuke. No data on full resist rates. He uses the phrase "the average hit" so I'm guessing he did not count full resists as 0 damage in that parse and left them out or his average would be much lower.

that means that your 612 damage Starfire (because we are nuking ourselves) does 268 on average.

so, your second test resulted in 2760 damage over 20 casts using the current system. Now if you take the 44% reduction in the above post (because we are self casting) and cast a 612 starfire on yourself 15 times (because 1/4 are resisted) you come out with 4039, so with PvP reduction that would be 2666.

That is a difference of 94 damage over 20 casts. Now keep in mind that this is only applicable IF a 7 level deficit equals 40ish resistance difference in classic...I'd bet it did and then some.

Maybe I failed at the math up above (very possible) or maybe a 7 level difference isn't that big of a deal...or maybe the people in that post are full of shit...I don't know. Otherwise that doesn't seem all that far off.

[MakeYouMad]

Ok, I just worked out the math. I logged onto EQ live zek server to check if you got damage reduction when nuking yourself, you don't.

That means if we want EQ classic resists based on that Graffe parse, a druid nuking himself with starfire and 167FR should do an average of 44% per nuke (612 x 0.44 = 269 damage, no PvP reduction nuking yourself). Full resists weren't counted as 0 in that guy's post, they were just omitted. Next, if we want to use linear extrapolation of this data, he should be nuking himself for an average of 58% of normal damage with starfire and 124FR. Darwoth currently nukes other people 1 level lower with 124FR for 55% of normal damage, so the average damage is a little lower than it should be but possibly within margin of error.

Here's my math for the linear extrapolation of this data:

I'm starting with the information that 167 cold resist = 56% average damage reduction

167 / 56 = 2.982

So the formula for extrapolating new data points is: Resist / 2.982 = the average percent removed from each nuke when cast in PvP


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There's also a few things I want to point out:

SOL can be resisted..I resist it all day ;p

I believe what the guy is talking about in that quote is spamming the UP key to avoid pushback, not sure though. People claim this spell was made unresistable at some point in time, but who knows. I doubt it should be unresistable in this time period.

Then for tears spells, those had some fucked up resist checks different from normal nukes so not a good example. One thing I am sure of, is that normal nukes did not have a static, full resist rate. It definitely went up against higher resists.

[Kringe]

Null,

Are we planning on leaving dots like they are.. IE if you move you take less dmg... This most certainly wasnt classic. I am just trying to gather some numbers from the "Dot classes" perspective if this is the case.

[Lovely]

Lovely brings the truth

50 Wizard of pure awesomeness nuking a Level 50 druid with the resists

FIRE RESIST: 149
FROST RESIST: 166
MAGIC RESIST: 118

All easy obtainable without raid gear. Especially if you're a Caster and got elemental shield.

The nukes in the tests are

Conflagration: Level 44, Fire nuke, 250 mana, 625 Damage Max
Ice Comet: Level 49, Frost Nuke, 400 mana, 1120 Damage Max
Shock of Lightning: Level 12, Magic nuke, 60 mana, 83 damage Max
Rend: Magic nuke, Level 49,280 mana, 784 Damage Max
Froststorm: Frost Rain, level 44, 312 mana, 250x3 Damage Max


Conflagration

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Way to little damage. Anyone that spends 1-3 days farming lowbie instance gear and Lguk items will get their resists this high.

Ice Comet

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Same deal as Conflagration. CR is also the easiest resist to get due to massive amounts of items with High Cold resist. I'll probably have way over 150 1-3 days into level 50 if not earlier. Resists are to powerful imo. The casting time on Ice comet is the highest out of all spells in battle I think. Making it the easiest spell to run out of range from.

Shock of lightning

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Still bugged. It suppose to only get partial resists like other Wizard nukes (it was like that during live)

Rend

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Target only had 118 MR which is nothing with buffs. Not impressed by the damage here either.

Frostorm

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The damage speaks for itself. Nukes and rains are basically useless on anyone that spent a few days farming resist gear.

Conclusion: Wizards and Druids will pretty much be shit on anyone who put a little effort into farming resist gear. While dot classes like Shamans just have to do 1x Ebolt and a caster goes from 100% to 0%. Doesn't seem to balanced to me. It's basically impossible to get high enough PR to resist any dots as well unless you have DMF and the only class with that are Necros.

After the patch I've actually never resisted a single magic dot, disease or poison dot. I'd love it if someone could to do some tests on dots. But so far not a single resist for me.

Monk/Necro/Shaman for me!!

ALSO IN CAPS: I WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO HITTING A SINGLE NUKE FOR MAX DAMAGE ONCE. GG!!!

[MakeYouMad]

Originally Posted by Lovely [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lovely brings the truth

50 Wizard of pure awesomeness nuking a Level 50 druid with the resists

FIRE RESIST: 149
FROST RESIST: 166
MAGIC RESIST: 118

The druid you're nuking has only 1 cold resist difference from the graffe parse. You should be nuking him for an average of 330 (44% per nuke) against 167CR but you're currently nuking him for an average of 194 (26% per nuke). You only posted 7 nukes though. Do a bigger sample size of cold nukes against that druid (lower level ones will be fine). Make sure he has 166CR like in the picture.

[Darwoth]

not going to waste my time arguing, i had the highest resistances of most people on the server and spent significant amounts of time testing resistances to find the sweet spots to build my gear around in addition to the years of pvp. starfires, ice comets, conflags, draughts, mage bolts simply did not give red text resists beyond the low default chance. period. it just didnt happen, dont know anything about sunstrike, didnt play a wizard and wizards were using lures at that juncture some spells never did act right regardless of what resist table they were on (such as all of my rain spells, nothing but full resists), if you want to insult me by saying i am a liar or dont remember right thats fine, but thats how it was, it isnt like i want resistances gimped so i can be shitcanned in 2 casts, but making it so anyone with basic entry level gear or a buff need not worry about anything other than a slight dent to their hit points isnt right either.

personally i am annoyed and feel as though all the conversations and time i spent with you testing these things were a waste of time given that thus far every single thing i have pointed out and brought up seems to have been completely ignored or gone in the opposite direction in spite of the fact that it appeared we reached an understanding on some things. (ie pointing out the fallacy of 32 damage minimum hits weeks ago, saying it would be adjusted and then it being that way anyway, the whole snares/roots stripping speed buffs thing and so on) since the overwhelming majority of the people on these boards are morons AND never played the game at a competitive level during that timeframe i am one of the handful here qualified to speak on it and frankly it pisses me off that i am still arguing with droolcups in every thread that dont know what the fuck their talking about.

regardless we are comparing a guy with 170 resistance saying he resists 1 in 4, so according to him 75% of the time he is not resisting. under your system currently someone with a shitty 124 resistance is resisting 40 - 60 percent of the time to the point that someone with an average mana pool would be unable to kill given classes that are afk without going out of mana.

170 vs 124 is huge, right now 124 here is far more effective at mitigating damage than 200 ever was on live.