Resist System Feedback

[Doors]

Thanks for all the work you guys have been putting in. System seems pretty good so far, nothing is gonna be perfect so people will still complain about it but still.

[Darwoth]

the minimum for starfire has gone from 32 to 102, so anything is an improvement to be sure, however at a relatively low 124 fr my target is still getting the minimum damage approximately 50% of the time. other than that your numbers are close but still to low.

the main problem is the minimum hits are far to frequent as they are basically the equivalent of a "full resist" for conversation sake, so if we go from the red text zero damage full resist 5% of the time to the 102 damage "full resist" 50% of the time it is still a significant damage reduction.

thats why i think if your going to keep this level of frequency on minimum hits the minimum hit (for a 410 dmg spell, higher should be higher, lower should be lower) should be at least 150 or so and that is still a huge nerf to a casters output/viability over classic, because you would need to be well over 200 resist to even come close to that where under the current system people will be getting those a lot starting at 80 - 100 resistance.

to summarize 10 casts of starfire on a target with 124 fr should be resulting in 10 casts hitting from 250 - 350 with most being closer to 350, not around half hitting 200 - 300 leaning toward the 200 range with 40% or more of those casts doing 102 (or a different minimum)

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Darwoth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the minimum for starfire has gone from 32 to 102, so anything is an improvement to be sure, however at a relatively low 124 fr my target is still getting the minimum damage approximately 50% of the time. other than that your numbers are close but still to low.

the main problem is the minimum hits are far to frequent as they are basically the equivalent of a "full resist" for conversation sake, so if we go from the red text zero damage full resist 5% of the time to the 102 damage "full resist" 50% of the time it is still a significant damage reduction.

thats why i think if your going to keep this level of frequency on minimum hits the minimum hit (for a 410 dmg spell, higher should be higher, lower should be lower) should be at least 150 or so and that is still a huge nerf to a casters output/viability over classic, because you would need to be well over 200 resist to even come close to that where under the current system people will be getting those a lot starting at 80 - 100 resistance.

to summarize 10 casts of starfire on a target with 124 fr should be resulting in 10 casts hitting from 250 - 350 with most being closer to 350, not around half hitting 200 - 300 leaning toward the 200 range with 40% or more of those casts doing 102 (or a different minimum)

I have about 120 Cold resist, IC landing full damage about 70% of the time. Elemental resist seem fine.

[Darwoth]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have about 120 Cold resist, IC landing full damage about 70% of the time. Elemental resist seem fine.

ice comet has a negative 10 modifier, so your 120 is now 110, null also gave the wizard class itself a negative modifier so even lower.

[Darwoth]

another string of 20 starfires (410 max) on the same 1 lev lower target with the same 124 fr.

197, 102, 226, 263, 102, 300, 102, 275, 102, 102, 102, 267, 213, 102, 102, 102, 102, 197, 102. 102

so, what we have this time is a 60% waste of mana rate. average damage per 250 mana 6 second cast time spell, 145....... less than a decent two hander swing.

again, this is completely broken.

YOU DID NOT GET FULL RESISTS ON SINGLE EFFECT NUKES BEYOND THE DEFAULT PERCENTAGE REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH YOUR RESISTANCES ARE.

30% or MORE of those casts should be landing for full damage.

this is how the game played during the entire launch through velious timeframe, this is the resist system that was everquest and this is what people came here to play.


i have better gear than a lot of folks, with resistance rings and things i have enough mana for 6 nukes, maybe if i had 2 bars of mana against an afk war/pal/sk and no aggro lowbie mobs to interrupt the 6 second cast time that i have to stand still during i could kill them after a full minute+ of standing around with a thumb up my ass chain casting. if i was lucky.

if the numbers had an extra 100 damage across the board it would be a lot closer to how it is supposed to look, or again if the 102's were replaced with a number out of the rest of the string.

this really needs to be fixed or the server will be another 50 population sack of shit like every other emulator i have played where plate class melees roam around invulnerable to everything but other plate class melees because the devs shitted up the resistance system, really dont know why it cant just be made classic.

[Cwall]

Originally Posted by Darwoth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

really dont know why it cant just be made classic.

because all they have to work with is differing anecdotal evidence from 12 years ago

[MakeYouMad]

Originally Posted by Cwall [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

because all they have to work with is differing anecdotal evidence from 12 years ago

That's where you're wrong because I found a parse of a wizard nuking himself with 167CR. It was before September 2002 (when the resist revamp occurred), so the resist system during that time should be the same as classic through velious:

"I'm also on TZ -- i did some experimenting - yah i was bored
nuking myself with draught of ice (i have 167 cold resist unbuffed) the average hit was for 347 , so yah it can land consistent dmg, just not a whole lot. "

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...ead-and-Learn&

If you get PvP damage reduction casting on yourself, that would be 347 out of 531 possible damage, or 65% average. If you don't get PvP damage reduction nuking yourself, that would be 347/793, or an average of 44% per nuke. No data on full resist rates. He uses the phrase "the average hit" so I'm guessing he did not count full resists as 0 damage in that parse and left them out or his average would be much lower.

[Null]

Originally Posted by Darwoth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

YOU DID NOT GET FULL RESISTS ON SINGLE EFFECT NUKES BEYOND THE DEFAULT PERCENTAGE REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH YOUR RESISTANCES ARE.

This is just plain not true, to quote a few people from that thread that MakeYouMad is linking:

Post

Tears sucks against melee's imo, druzzil is a waste of time due to the resists, I think the best use is prexus on an int or wis caster. Pre 60 I found that ice comet had a far too high resist rate to use often, and it is slow as hell. Draughts suck too but at least they are fast... but I noticed as you get past 56/57 they become almost unusable (hitting friends for under 100 per draught with 140s resists).

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130936

SOL can be resisted..I resist it all day ;p

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130931

Well I'm 54 - but I've taken down lvl 60 wizards so lemme give it to ya from a victims point of view.

Solists and Sunstrike - my resists are like 170ish. Sunstrike I usually flat out resist 1 in 4 and the rest dont do jack. Solists seems to work like Ice Comet. One time it hits for 100, next time 700 etc.

Keep in mind the 6 level diff also - I'm sure this changes if it was a lvl 60 vs lvl 60 wiz.

Anwyayz - hope this helps.

Ace
KotWR

All of them talk about resist rates on direct damage spells and the entire thread advocates using lures in place of other direct damage spells because of that reason.

Hell that last quote there is saying that with 170FR and a 7 level gap (he is 54 and the caster is 60) says, "I usually flat out resist 1 in 4 and the rest dont do jack.". How does that sound like anything you are describing?


Also, just for shits if you go with the resist rate that he is describing AND use the numbers derived from another post in that thread (thanks MakeYouMad)

If you get PvP damage reduction casting on yourself, that would be 347 out of 531 possible damage, or 65% average. If you don't get PvP damage reduction nuking yourself, that would be 347/793, or an average of 44% per nuke. No data on full resist rates. He uses the phrase "the average hit" so I'm guessing he did not count full resists as 0 damage in that parse and left them out or his average would be much lower.

that means that your 612 damage Starfire (because we are nuking ourselves) does 268 on average.

so, your second test resulted in 2760 damage over 20 casts using the current system. Now if you take the 44% reduction in the above post (because we are self casting) and cast a 612 starfire on yourself 15 times (because 1/4 are resisted) you come out with 4039, so with PvP reduction that would be 2666.

That is a difference of 94 damage over 20 casts. Now keep in mind that this is only applicable IF a 7 level deficit equals 40ish resistance difference in classic...I'd bet it did and then some.

Maybe I failed at the math up above (very possible) or maybe a 7 level difference isn't that big of a deal...or maybe the people in that post are full of shit...I don't know. Otherwise that doesn't seem all that far off.

[MakeYouMad]

Ok, I just worked out the math. I logged onto EQ live zek server to check if you got damage reduction when nuking yourself, you don't.

That means if we want EQ classic resists based on that Graffe parse, a druid nuking himself with starfire and 167FR should do an average of 44% per nuke (612 x 0.44 = 269 damage, no PvP reduction nuking yourself). Full resists weren't counted as 0 in that guy's post, they were just omitted. Next, if we want to use linear extrapolation of this data, he should be nuking himself for an average of 58% of normal damage with starfire and 124FR. Darwoth currently nukes other people 1 level lower with 124FR for 55% of normal damage, so the average damage is a little lower than it should be but possibly within margin of error.

Here's my math for the linear extrapolation of this data:

I'm starting with the information that 167 cold resist = 56% average damage reduction

167 / 56 = 2.982

So the formula for extrapolating new data points is: Resist / 2.982 = the average percent removed from each nuke when cast in PvP


[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


There's also a few things I want to point out:

SOL can be resisted..I resist it all day ;p

I believe what the guy is talking about in that quote is spamming the UP key to avoid pushback, not sure though. People claim this spell was made unresistable at some point in time, but who knows. I doubt it should be unresistable in this time period.

Then for tears spells, those had some fucked up resist checks different from normal nukes so not a good example. One thing I am sure of, is that normal nukes did not have a static, full resist rate. It definitely went up against higher resists.

[mimixownzall]

Originally Posted by Null [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is just plain not true, to quote a few people from that thread that MakeYouMad is linking:

Post


http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130936


http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthr...l=1#post130931


All of them talk about resist rates on direct damage spells and the entire thread advocates using lures in place of other direct damage spells because of that reason.

Hell that last quote there is saying that with 170FR and a 7 level gap (he is 54 and the caster is 60) says, "I usually flat out resist 1 in 4 and the rest dont do jack.". How does that sound like anything you are describing?


Also, just for shits if you go with the resist rate that he is describing AND use the numbers derived from another post in that thread (thanks MakeYouMad)



that means that your 612 damage Starfire (because we are nuking ourselves) does 268 on average.

so, your second test resulted in 2760 damage over 20 casts using the current system. Now if you take the 44% reduction in the above post (because we are self casting) and cast a 612 starfire on yourself 15 times (because 1/4 are resisted) you come out with 4039, so with PvP reduction that would be 2666.

That is a difference of 94 damage over 20 casts. Now keep in mind that this is only applicable IF a 7 level deficit equals 40ish resistance difference in classic...I'd bet it did and then some.

Maybe I failed at the math up above (very possible) or maybe a 7 level difference isn't that big of a deal...or maybe the people in that post are full of shit...I don't know. Otherwise that doesn't seem all that far off.

Yes, Null, but also take into account that this is from 2002. Not only was this after a resist revamp (not sure what was changed), but these people could cast 20+ nukes due to the difference in gear and the better dmg:mana ratios. My wizard has 2008 mana (more than lovely) because I sac some resists for some mana stuff (plus he's a brohta) and I can't get off 5 IC's. I usually fizzle one or try at least one or two roots or a dispell.