Can capitalism exist without govt

[Hoggen]

Using the simplest definition of government, i.e. a monopoly on force, there has been no sustained period in human history where government has not existed, so your question is irrelevant.

[Loke]

Samoht, you can't take one sector of the economy (oil), which happens to be largely run by cartels (like opec) and then argue that it is representative of an economy as a whole. That is like me taking the natural monopoly provided to utility companies and using their actions to forecast the actions of a restaurant - one faces competition while the other does not. Oil is a very particular sector of the economy and not at all representative of economic actions under competition.

Generally speaking, savings are passed on to the consumer so as to attain a higher share of the market, thus increasing profits. This has been shown time and time again - there are even instances in which savings beyond actual cost of production were passed to the consumer due to competition (Utah Pie Company v. Continental) - given there were monopolistic factors there - but still. You don't see me sitting here claiming that all companies will sell their products at below cost because I have one example of that having happened.

Again, wealth is not finite - capital may be finite, but capital and wealth are two different things. The rich are getting richer, but every statistic says that the poor are getting richer too (rich relative to past rich, poor relative to past poor). I'm not sure where (aside from marx) you got these ideas from, but even modern economics that I think are generally wrong tend to disagree with the majority of what you're saying - there is simply too much evidence to the contrary.

[rikustrength]

We have capitalism on p99 with no government so...

[Loke]

Originally Posted by rikustrength [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We have capitalism on p99 with no government so...

If you rip someone off in a trade what happens? If someone is farming an item (think production) and you steal their camp, what happens? The GMs are our government on P99. They make and enforce rules about general conduct - that can definitely be described as governing.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Samoht, you can't take one sector of the economy (oil), which happens to be largely run by cartels (like opec) and then argue that it is representative of an economy as a whole. That is like me taking the natural monopoly provided to utility companies and using their actions to forecast the actions of a restaurant - one faces competition while the other does not. Oil is a very particular sector of the economy and not at all representative of economic actions under competition.

You're ignorant if you believe that oil is the only part of this economy where this occurs. Ever heard of banks? Housing? Cell phones?

They're all out of control, and any cost-effective competition is immediately bought out to improve profits or sued so that they're tied up in litigation long enough to make them irrelevant.

There was a thread somewhere asking why the price of FBSS was so high on P99. It's because the people with all of the plat sit around in EC and buy them all creating a false shortage as they resale them at a fixed price.

Capitalism is always corrupt. Capitalism is never the answer.

[Loke]

I'm not saying that - but I'm saying no one sector is representative of an economy, and you actually have to look at each sector before making any conclusions.

Cell phones have 4 national players, as well as numerous regional (alltel, us cellular are examples) - comparing that to the oil industry is ridiculous. I think you fail to understand the costs associated with cell phones - especially given the recent influx in internet capable phones. Basic I/O tells us that for firms, profit maximization occurs when their marginal revenue is equal to their marginal cost. There is not a single cell phone company out there making profits any where near that point.

As for banking and housing - I'm not sure what you're talking about, nor how you can compare those things to cell phones or oil with a straight face. There is a great peter schiff lecture that discusses the housing crisis - which had a number of contributing factors. You really need to be more specific.. you can't just say "LOOK AT HOUSES AND BANKS!" and expect that to prove any point. What exactly about housing and banking are you talking about? Issues in both industries have specific and often interlinked causes.

[Hoggen]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're ignorant if you believe that oil is the only part of this economy where this occurs. Ever heard of banks? Housing? Cell phones?

You can buy large multi-bedroom houses in Detroit MI for under 50 k. Why? Because regulation and the National Labor Board drove all industry out of the city, and the supply of homes available is staggering. Was that the result of Capitalism? No, it was the result of government intervention.

You say Capitalism is always corrupt, and never the answer. What is the answer then? What works better?

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Hoggen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why? Because regulation and the National Labor Board drove all industry out of the city

this statement is extremely facetious. there are a lot of forces at work in the world that have closed down factories and mills, not the least of which is the rapid industrialization of china and their subsequent entry into the international sphere of trading...

[Hoggen]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this statement is extremely facetious. there are a lot of forces at work in the world that have closed down factories and mills, not the least of which is the rapid industrialization of china and their subsequent entry into the international sphere of trading...

You ignore the fact that the US government has the power to impose tariffs and has failed to do so in the face of virtual slave labor and currency manipulation on the part of China. Again the onus is on government, not Capitalism. When government fails to protect the people it supposedly represents, it's hard to blame Capitalism. Transferring wealth to the third world to equalize the misery everywhere does not lead to prosperity, but it seems to be the goal of the US government, and has been for decades. That's not Capitalism.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Hoggen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

impose tariffs.

Originally Posted by Hoggen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not Capitalism.

you said it better than I ever could have.