Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Pudge]

if this server is item loot guess what i'm rolling?
































.............. guessed yet?


















































that's right, it's a mage.

[Yukahwa]

Thats great.

[Zuranthium]

Then roll a mage. What's your point? It's far better to have naked casters fighting each other than it is to have twinked out melee rolling over any caster b/c of ridiculous equipment for their level. The former is a test of skill, the latter is a test of who has grinded the most on the server.

[Bockscar]

It's far better to have naked casters fighting each other than it is to have twinked out melee rolling over any caster b/c of ridiculous equipment for their level.

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks? Do you actually have the slightest idea what you're talking about?

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

[Galacticus]

Originally Posted by Bockscar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks? Do you actually have the slightest idea what you're talking about?

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

This.

[Not_Kazowi]

Originally Posted by Billbike [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is how you can spot blue players. When they act like without itemloot or coin, there is no incentive is to pvp lol.

Back on TZ, guild rivalry drove pvp. Pure hatred flowed freely. PDM Vs Disco vs indignation. Access to raid zones and loots was like an arms race between the superpowers of the planet. Because when people killed eachother, it wasn't just a random ganking, it was a grudge match.

Saying we need itemloot as an incentive to pvp just shows you haven't been a part of a fully functioning pvp server.

Reputation, glory, dominance, access to loot, hate, revenge.

These are the incentive. Everything else is just minor details.

Thank you god for someone pointing this out. All I've been reading is a bunch of no names crying for item loot when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

I led Heresy on VZTZ and played the server through both item loot eras. Item loot takes away from pvp and actually causes less of it. There is plenty of inentive to pvp without item loot. Sebilis was ALWAYS under contestion, I'm talking large 30v30 battles over just zone control, and Trakanon wouldn't even be up. Zone control is such a huge reason to pvp.

Guild rivalry is another reason pvp will always be happening, people will want to go stop enemy guilds just for fucks sake. You will see guilds go pvp enemy guilds over raid mobs they don't even need just to fuck with them.

Coin loot? Yes, exp loss sure? Iem loot? Fuck no. Even this bagged item bullshit is stupid, that totally fucks any character that needs multiple items to function. If you put in item loot it is going to skew pvp so much. Please just don't do it, it's detrimental in the long run.


Also: gtfo with this twink shit, that is such a non factor. This isn't live where you can twink a level 65 with wind striker and shit.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Bockscar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks?

Except it won't be dominated by naked casters because in the end game melee are very strong.

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.

Originally Posted by Bockscar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

Don't use the excuse of twinks not being a problem because they only exist in the levels that you go by in fastest. The whole journey is important, especially for new players to the server or casual players. People can twink out alts and keep those alts at a certain level just so they can easily kill other players in that level range.

You also act as if the people who grind to the highest levels first and get the best gear first will let other people have those camps. They will frequently exert a lot of effort in preventing others from even attempting to camp the hotspots. Item loot provides more of an equalizer for skill, so that it's less about getting decked out and more about using tactics and intuition.

[Not_Kazowi]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.

Haha you have clearly NO idea what you are talking about, please stop.

[Bockscar]

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.

Find another server. This one clearly isn't for you. PvE content is a central part of PvP and is most of the reason PvP takes place. If you want to completely change that, it won't be on a classic server.

You also act as if the people who grind to the highest levels first and get the best gear first will let other people have those camps. They will frequently exert a lot of effort in preventing others from even attempting to camp the hotspots. Item loot provides more of an equalizer for skill, so that it's less about getting decked out and more about using tactics and intuition.

Tactics and intuition? Are you making this up as you go along? Itemloot provides an environment where by far the most effective method of PvPing is to circumvent the itemloot system, either by PvPing naked or by bagging your items at the first sign of possible death. Pretty much everyone will do one or the other. As has been repeatedly pointed out, PvP is about the rights to content, about guild rivalries, and about the sheer fun of PvPing. Itemloot has nothing to do with any of that.

If you're so worried about the top players, wait until they're all decked out in no-drop raid gear. Then you'll really see what kind of immense advantage they'd have on an itemloot server. If your primary concern is to be left behind by those better than you, you should be against itemloot because in the end it's the weaker players like you who suffer and the elite who loot all your shit without risking anything themselves.

Itemloot has been proven not to work with the way the game is designed, not to add anything of value to a server, and not to be appreciated by the majority. Much like you, I expect.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Not_Kazowi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Haha you have clearly NO idea what you are talking about, please stop.

You lead a PvP Guild on some shitty server. Congrats. There's far more to game theory than what you try to purport.

Originally Posted by Bockscar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Find another server. This one clearly isn't for you. PvE content is a central part of PvP and is most of the reason PvP takes place. If you want to completely change that, it won't be on a classic server.

Your closed-minded assumptions as to what constitutes good PvP or what this server is going to be or the definition of classic are leading the discussion nowhere. If EQ is the only PvP you've ever played, then you should really just stop talking altogether.

The reason PvP takes place should predominantly be because players want to play in an RPG combat setting against other players, given that humans are more complex and unpredictable than the programmed PvE encounters, which leads to a far more challenging and dynamic kind of game.

PvE is the backdrop and it still needs to have importance, such as getting equipment and leveling (my example of someone leveling only from PvP is merely an option that would be available, not what is the most frugal) and most definitely the element of danger it adds to the game, but it shouldn't be what drives everything in and of itself. Getting a talented group of players together and going out and trying to defeat other groups of players should be a large goal; if you want to PvP then you should find it fun to fight other players.

Perhaps I should mention that I want a Sullon Zek kind of team-PvP with what I'm envisioning. Defending territories and missions into enemy territory should be a revolving part of the PvP experience within an immersive PvP game World. The PvE element of the game is important here for the obstacles and extra rewards it provides. I would also want daily 6v6 PvP tournaments with a ranking board for both Guilds and Individuals. These tournaments would be only about contained PvP without the added elements of PvE monsters or unequal numbers of players fighting, but PvE would still be important to these players because they would still need to go out and interact in the game World to get the necessary gear (since the most powerful items are No Drop) if they want the best odds possible.

This kind of server would be the most immersive and varied kind of competitive RPG experience you could hope for. You exist within a World where anyone can kill you at any moment (even if they are part of your same faction, you just wouldn't get any additional penalties from players of your faction), but you are ultimately battling against other factions and taking part in epic adventures where dangerous is constantly lurking and ever-changing. Many different styles of PvP would be important, from guerrilla tactics out in the game world to massive-scale battles between factions in contest zones to the more micro-oriented 6v6 battles within contained environments that don't have outside influences.

Maybe I could even be wrong about Item Loot within that vision I have for the best kind of PvP server, but I've played a plethora of MUDs and other games which allow looting and to me the feature makes it that much more realistic and terrifying. When there is the possibly of losing something tangible, you become that much more involved. Then there is this final point as well:

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incentive to kill players and not train them goes up in a raid setting with item loot.