Bow damage formula?

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your initial explaination added 1 damage randomly, didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2, and used the wrong damage table. I am not sure why you think your idea should be taken seriously, while other ideas shouldn't be taken seriously.

Let me try to help you understand. It's very simple. Any idea has two fundamental criteria it must meet for me to take it seriously. It needs to explain the existing data. And it needs to make a prediction for a future experiment to evaluate. My ideas matched the measurements. I thought (bow + arrow + 1) + bonus was crazy at first but it matched the data. You said it "added 1 damage randomly". It turns out that was correct. You say it "didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2". It turns out that was correct. You say it used the "wrong damage table". It turns out that was correct.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seeing my sarnak war bow is slightly worse than a windsaber which is second highest that's pretty nice. Huntsman is cool too but there's only a 5dly difference in the end, no huge arrow savings to be made there. The stats on the sarnak are pretty nice too.

Indeed surprising that exquisite sits on top of huntsman when the former has an extra 12dmg for only 6delay.

DPS and damage/delay ratios suffer from the same counter-intuitive problem as MPG as a metric for cars. What you actually care about is the inverse of the metric. Imagine you have a 100 mile daily commute. What's the bigger upgrade? Going from a 20mpg to a 30mpg car, or going from a 50mpg to a 100mpg car? It's the former even though the latter looks bigger. Going from 20mpg to 30mpg means you go from 100 mi / 20 mpg = 5 gallons to 100 mi / 30 mpg = 3.3 gallons, or 1.7 gallons in savings. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg means going from 100 mi / 50 mpg = 2 gallons to 100mi / 100 mpg or 1 for 1 gallon in savings. It's the same thing with DPS versus time-to-kill.

Let's assume the Sarnak War Bow is the current bow, the level for damage bonus is 57, and the mainhand bonus is Earthshaker. Lets look at damge, number of arrows to kill and time to kill for a mob with 3k hp:

Earthshaker: 45 bonus

    Wind Saber:          62, 48 arrows, 1056 delay
    Sarnak War Bow:      61, 49 arrows, 1225 delay
    Bow of the Huntsman: 69, 43 arrows, 1290 delay
    Exquisite Velium:    81, 37 arrows, 1332 delay

So upgrading to Wind Saber means no change in number of arrows, but 17 seconds less time per kill. Upgrading to Huntsman means 6.5 seconds longer per kill, but 6 less arrows. Upgrading to the Velium means 10 seconds longer per kill and 12 arrows less per kill.

Here's the same chart with Swamcaller: 27 bonus

    Wind Saber:          44, 68 arrows, 1496 delay
    Sarnak War Bow:      43, 69 arrows, 1725 delay
    Bow of the Huntsman: 51, 58 arrows, 1740 delay
    Exquisite Velium:    63, 47 arrows, 1692 delay

The way I interpret these numbers: Since this is assuming you're rooting the mob, time to kill isn't super important since you're not taking damage you'll need to heal. Summoning Tolan arrows gives you 20 per 15 seconds or 1.3 seconds each. So saving 6 arrows at the cost of 6.5 seconds per kill in time spent shooting means 6.5 seconds more spent shooting while saving 7.8 seconds summoning arrows. So with this (unhasted) perspective Bow of the Huntsman beats out Sarnak War Bow.

Now, this is napkin math with multiple serious caveats. This isn't taking into account hit rate, haste, or the fact that the average damage per hit will differ from the modal damage based on level difference, offense stats vs defense stats, etc. I think my takeaway is that no matter which of these 4 bows you have you're gonna ball out, and which you choose is as much down to personal style and personal access as anything else. If I had a Sarnak bow I'd try it out and see if I liked it more than the Huntsman. But these numbers reassure me that I'm not really at any disadvantage with my Huntsman.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks bcbrown and Tytos!

As a big BFG nerd it’s always confused me a bit. It doesn’t seem to have massive crits like the multiplying factors would make you believe. Most my crits on disc with 8 damage arrows are in the mid 300 range…yet it churns out dps in an underrated fashion. It using a 2h modifier similar to how the archery skill relies on MH delay actually makes a ton of sense. It must be that fat middle of the Bell Curve pays off in the end.

Appreciate it! It's still a little confusing to me. With +8 arrows it looks like it behaves like a 29/50 2h weapon but you can dual-wield an offhand with it. I think it's just got so many weird interactions with enough combat mechanics that you just gotta enjoy the dps and not ask too many questions about how. So I guess we agree.

[TytosOfEight]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let me try to help you understand. It's very simple. Any idea has two fundamental criteria it must meet for me to take it seriously. It needs to explain the existing data. And it needs to make a prediction for a future experiment to evaluate. My ideas matched the measurements. I thought (bow + arrow + 1) + bonus was crazy at first but it matched the data. You said it "added 1 damage randomly". It turns out that was correct. You say it "didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2". It turns out that was correct. You say it used the "wrong damage table". It turns out that was correct.



DPS and damage/delay ratios suffer from the same counter-intuitive problem as MPG as a metric for cars. What you actually care about is the inverse of the metric. Imagine you have a 100 mile daily commute. What's the bigger upgrade? Going from a 20mpg to a 30mpg car, or going from a 50mpg to a 100mpg car? It's the former even though the latter looks bigger. Going from 20mpg to 30mpg means you go from 100 mi / 20 mpg = 5 gallons to 100 mi / 30 mpg = 3.3 gallons, or 1.7 gallons in savings. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg means going from 100 mi / 50 mpg = 2 gallons to 100mi / 100 mpg or 1 for 1 gallon in savings. It's the same thing with DPS versus time-to-kill.

Let's assume the Sarnak War Bow is the current bow, the level for damage bonus is 57, and the mainhand bonus is Earthshaker. Lets look at damge, number of arrows to kill and time to kill for a mob with 3k hp:

Earthshaker: 45 bonus

    Wind Saber:          62, 48 arrows, 1056 delay
    Sarnak War Bow:      61, 49 arrows, 1225 delay
    Bow of the Huntsman: 69, 43 arrows, 1290 delay
    Exquisite Velium:    81, 37 arrows, 1332 delay

So upgrading to Wind Saber means no change in number of arrows, but 17 seconds less time per kill. Upgrading to Huntsman means 6.5 seconds longer per kill, but 6 less arrows. Upgrading to the Velium means 10 seconds longer per kill and 12 arrows less per kill.

Here's the same chart with Swamcaller: 27 bonus

    Wind Saber:          44, 68 arrows, 1496 delay
    Sarnak War Bow:      43, 69 arrows, 1725 delay
    Bow of the Huntsman: 51, 58 arrows, 1740 delay
    Exquisite Velium:    63, 47 arrows, 1692 delay

The way I interpret these numbers: Since this is assuming you're rooting the mob, time to kill isn't super important since you're not taking damage you'll need to heal. Summoning Tolan arrows gives you 20 per 15 seconds or 1.3 seconds each. So saving 6 arrows at the cost of 6.5 seconds per kill in time spent shooting means 6.5 seconds more spent shooting while saving 7.8 seconds summoning arrows. So with this (unhasted) perspective Bow of the Huntsman beats out Sarnak War Bow.

Now, this is napkin math with multiple serious caveats. This isn't taking into account hit rate, haste, or the fact that the average damage per hit will differ from the modal damage based on level difference, offense stats vs defense stats, etc. I think my takeaway is that no matter which of these 4 bows you have you're gonna ball out, and which you choose is as much down to personal style and personal access as anything else. If I had a Sarnak bow I'd try it out and see if I liked it more than the Huntsman. But these numbers reassure me that I'm not really at any disadvantage with my Huntsman.



Appreciate it! It's still a little confusing to me. With +8 arrows it looks like it behaves like a 29/50 2h weapon but you can dual-wield an offhand with it. I think it's just got so many weird interactions with enough combat mechanics that you just gotta enjoy the dps and not ask too many questions about how. So I guess we agree.

Unfortunately, you forgot to account for the proc damage from the Gleed bow. I remember using it with a rusty halberd, killing the 3 blue Barbs in Perma at 51ish, and that thing would proc 15-16 times per fight. It was doing more than 1/3 total damage, and sometimes up to half my bow damage. It will use fewer arrows. Unhasted it will proc more too. It's great because the damage the output is the same for rooted vs. unrooted mobs, because the proc works regardless.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately, you forgot to account for the proc damage from the Gleed bow. I remember using it with a rusty halberd, killing the 3 blue Barbs in Perma at 51ish, and that thing would proc 15-16 times per fight. It was doing more than 1/3 total damage, and sometimes up to half my bow damage. It will use fewer arrows. Unhasted it will proc more too. It's great because the damage the output is the same for rooted vs. unrooted mobs, because the proc works regardless.

Yea, part of the reason I’m thinking the Skydarkener is the dark horse for bow rotting. It’s raid loot but essentially free for any raid guild. Additionally the base damage and proc damage is much higher than the Gleed. Better yet, if procs at level 35 and you only need a TL from a wizard to loot it.

I like the Gleed and used it a ton when leveling. The speed makes for a very good user experience. It’s just a resource waste (albeit much better than the Dagarn).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let me try to help you understand. It's very simple. Any idea has two fundamental criteria it must meet for me to take it seriously. It needs to explain the existing data. And it needs to make a prediction for a future experiment to evaluate. My ideas matched the measurements. I thought (bow + arrow + 1) + bonus was crazy at first but it matched the data. You said it "added 1 damage randomly". It turns out that was correct. You say it "didn't multiply the weapon damage by 2". It turns out that was correct. You say it used the "wrong damage table". It turns out that was correct.

The issue is not about whether you are correct or not. The issue is you are generally not very good at showing your work and/or data. This is compounded by your nature to reply with insult and arrogance, rather than address concerns other posters have.

1. Your data showing 26 damage as your minimum damage is hard evidence against your guess that the 2h damage table was being used. If your damage bonus is 34, you can't hit for 26. If you had simply posted your raw logs as requested, we could have figured out that your data was correct, but your method for collecting and graphing the data was flawed.

2. It was TytosOfEight who actually proved the 2h damage table was being used. Not yourself.

3. It was I who showed that Archery has it's damage divided by 2 and it has a global damage modifier in the EQEMU code. Not yourself.

There is nothing innately wrong with throwing out a wild guess. Lucky for you it happened to be at least partially correct. Next time please provide less insults, and be better at showing your data/work. Your arrogance and insults only increased the time it took to solve the problem, and it didn't help your credibility.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The way I interpret these numbers: Since this is assuming you're rooting the mob, time to kill isn't super important since you're not taking damage you'll need to heal. Summoning Tolan arrows gives you 20 per 15 seconds or 1.3 seconds each. So saving 6 arrows at the cost of 6.5 seconds per kill in time spent shooting means 6.5 seconds more spent shooting while saving 7.8 seconds summoning arrows. So with this (unhasted) perspective Bow of the Huntsman beats out Sarnak War Bow.

Now, this is napkin math with multiple serious caveats. This isn't taking into account hit rate, haste, or the fact that the average damage per hit will differ from the modal damage based on level difference, offense stats vs defense stats, etc. I think my takeaway is that no matter which of these 4 bows you have you're gonna ball out, and which you choose is as much down to personal style and personal access as anything else. If I had a Sarnak bow I'd try it out and see if I liked it more than the Huntsman. But these numbers reassure me that I'm not really at any disadvantage with my Huntsman.

Fair point. The way I view it is the difference in arrows/kill speed doesn't really matter much either way, especially if you're not going to bow down a mob's entire hp bar in most cases, which leaves a lot of room for preference. Only reason I'm using sarnak war bow right now is because the melee stats are nice and it was the easiest decent bow to obtain but I like the raincaller for added dex (swarmcaller) and heavier double damage hits on initial pull (I don't have a higher damage bow). I like snaggles skydarkener theory, I'd like to try them all honestly.

Do we have a formula for max damage?

I wanted to try parsing str vs dex to see how that works out. I don't have dex gear but figured if DPS/max hit does or doesn't go down after removing a bunch of str gear then we'll know. If it doesn't I'll remove dex gear. Still new to parsers so I'll have to figure out how to extract the log of individual hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do we have a formula for max damage?

It has not been finalized yet. From the findings so far the TLDR is Archery damage uses the melee damage formula, but it has a few special rules:

1. Archery damage appears to be divided by 2 before applying the main hand damage bonus, at least for BFG.

2. There may be a damage modifier that slightly increases Archery damage. Bcbrown thinks it is a flat +1 to weapon damage, but I am not sure if that is correct. Not enough testing has been done, and Bcbrown is not very forthcoming with his data. Someone else probably needs to do some testing who can provide more accurate data.

3. We don't know yet if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. In the EQEMU code there is a special exception to use DEX instead of STR for Archery damage, but this could be a bit different on P99. Someone just needs to do some testing with different STR and/or DEX values.

4. BFG specifically uses the 2h damage table when worn in the primary hand.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It has not been finalized yet. From the findings so far the TLDR is Archery damage uses the melee damage formula, but it has a few special rules:

1. Archery damage appears to be divided by 2 before applying the main hand damage bonus, at least for BFG.

2. There may be a damage modifier that slightly increases Archery damage. Bcbrown thinks it is a flat +1 to weapon damage, but I am not sure if that is correct. Not enough testing has been done, and Bcbrown is not very forthcoming with his data. Someone else probably needs to do some testing who can provide more accurate data.

3. We don't know yet if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. In the EQEMU code there is a special exception to use DEX instead of STR for Archery damage, but this could be a bit different on P99. Someone just needs to do some testing with different STR and/or DEX values.

4. BFG specifically uses the 2h damage table when worn in the primary hand.

Melee also uses (offense + str) for max hit, we also have to consider it may use archery instead of offense? For 60 rangers it is a small 12 points difference but it might account for a small discrepancy since it is part of the multiplier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee also uses (offense + str) for max hit, we also have to consider it may use archery instead of offense? For 60 rangers it is a small 12 points difference but it might account for a small discrepancy since it is part of the multiplier.

Melee damage uses weapon skill. So your Archery skill should be used instead of whatever weapon skill is in your primary hand. But I don't know if STR, DEX, or neither is used for Archery damage. That needs to be tested still.