New Druid Advice from the experts

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For context, he specified the mana saving wasn't for "invis mana", it was for nukes. Mana is mana, saving mana means you have more mana for any spell you want. I never claimed that the mana was exculsively used for invis.

The reason the ring saves mana is because you don't have to use as much mana on nukes/dots after breaking charm because you can confidently break charm when mobs are closer to death. The mana savings from the free clicky are almost irrelevant and completely lost in the noise of snares, root breaks, charm breaks, and nukes/dots.

Everyone else accepts this but you deny that the goblin ring allows you to break charm at lower health on average while minimizing losing 50%/100% due to not getting an IvA off on time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason the ring saves mana is because you don't have to use as much mana on nukes/dots after breaking charm because you can confidently break charm when mobs are closer to death. The mana savings from the free clicky are almost irrelevant and completely lost in the noise of snares, root breaks, charm breaks, and nukes/dots.

Everyone else accepts this but you deny that the goblin ring allows you to break charm at lower health on average while minimizing losing 50%/100% due to not getting an IvA off on time.

You clearly don't understand clickies or flowing thought items, as I said earlier.

People pay 60k for Choker of the Wretched for 1 mana every 6 seconds. If you click Ring even 10 times per hour, that is 0.5 mana every 6 seconds. People will gladly pay 5k for an item that is half as powerful as a 60k item. It can be more powerful too if you click it more often. The stats are not what sells Choker. It's the FT1. You can get a 6+ neck for 5k, and the stats are basically the same, but with all resists too.

You still have no evidence to suggest the riskier playstyle of breaking later saves mana in the long run. If you lose a mob, you'll waste a lot of time and mana. I can predict charm breaks just fine without Goblin Ring, and you can save the same mana with free damage clickies at less risk.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You clearly don't understand clickies or flowing thought items, as I said earlier.

People pay 60k for Choker of the Wretched for 1 mana every 6 seconds. If you click Ring even 10 times per hour, that is 0.5 mana every 6 seconds. People will gladly pay 5k for an item that is half as powerful as a 60k item. It can be more powerful too if you click it more often. The stats are not what sells Choker. It's the FT1. You can get a 6+ neck for 5k, and the stats are basically the same, but with all resists too.

You still have no evidence to suggest the riskier playstyle of breaking later saves mana in the long run. If you lose a mob, you'll waste a lot of time and mana. I can predict charm breaks just fine without Goblin Ring, and you can save the same mana with free damage clickies at less risk.

When you say the goblin ring saves mana, exactly what are you saying? Are you talking about the mana savings from not having to cast the 30 mana IVA? Do you believe there any other mana savings from using a gobling ring?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you say the goblin ring saves mana, exactly what are you saying? Are you talking about the mana savings from not having to cast the 30 mana IVA? Do you believe there any other mana savings from using a gobling ring?

If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence showing you need Goblin Ring to save that nuke mana. This is referring to using instant invis to break charm later, which allows you to use a lower cost nuke.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence for this.

People have mentioned that if you're gonna charm, may as well start as early as possible. At level 14 you can't easy remobilise to pick up PoTGs and C2s, and mobs don't last long. The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People have mentioned that if you're gonna charm, may as well start as early as possible. At level 14 you can't easy remobilise to pick up PoTGs and C2s, and mobs don't last long. The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

Correct. Having Goblin Ring at low levels is nice. If you can get one early, you should. I just don't like people claiming you have a high probability of getting Goblin Ring via camping it while leveling. You didn't get one on your Mage. People just need to know what they are getting into if they choose to camp Goblin Ring vs. farming some plat while leveling.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

I mean, I guess? But I really think the the potential saving of two 70 mana Careless Lightings (plus possibly a second nuke and/or 1-2 roots/snares) matters more.

Ideally, you would finish every charm fight by 1HB-ing both mobs to death, mana-free. Norath is not ideal though: you need to kill runners fast to avoid adds.

How much mana does that take? It depends on the mob's HP when charm breaks. If they have 70/105 HP, you'd need two nukes and a root, for 175 mana total. But if both are at 40 HP, two roots (and a few club hits) does it for only 70 mana, or less (with a 15 mana snare instead of a root). That's a 125 mana difference between the two scenarios.

The thing is, if you try to chase those low HP "late breaks", you inevitably wind up with "too late" breaks, where a mob dies pre-break. This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).

No one wants to go through a charm fight only to lose 50%/100% of the mob's XP. Without a ring, the only way to safely avoid that is an early break. With the ring, you can instead break late.

It's not about the "invisible mana" ... it's about the "finish him" mana!

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing is, if you try to chase those low HP "late breaks", you inevitably wind up with "too late" breaks, where a mob dies pre-break. This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).

No one wants to go through a charm fight only to lose 50%/100% of the mob's XP. Without a ring, the only way to safely avoid that is an early break. With the ring, you can instead break late.

This is the contradiction I've been adressing. Your logic goes like this:

1. Breaking late increases the risk of losing the mob (This is correct).
2. Goblin Ring incentivises you to break late (increasing the risk of losing the mob).
3. ???
4. Goblin Ring decreases late charm break risk (no evidence for this claim).

It doesn't make sense to say Goblin Ring somehow makes breaking late safer. You simply break later, increasing the risk of the mob dying.

The only way to decrease the risk of losing the mob is to break sooner. That's it.

You need to weigh the increased risk of losing the mob via Goblin Ring late charm breaking against the possible mana saving by using a lower mana nuke. You also need to prove that you can't (or it's inefficient to) save the same mana with predicting when to break or mana free damage clickies.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not about the "invisible mana" ... it's about the "finish him" mana!

Saving mana per click by not casting the spell is the equivalent to a Flowing Thought item. Fungi Staff is a Flowing Thought II item, because you save 1200 mana per hour by not casting Regrowth for 300 mana every 15 minutes.

Same concept applies to Ring. If you do 20 charm breaks in an hour, you save 600 mana, which is Flowing Thought I.

Flowing Thought items are good, because they give you mana, so you can med less. It's the same reason why people like Clarity and PoTG.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).